My players are unstoppable

[TKDB]

I don't have too much experience behind the DM screen, but from my experiences both as a player and as a DM, I will say that tactics are HUGE. Arrange things so that the PCs have to fight on the enemy's terms, preferably giving the enemies a surprise round to throw debilitating debuffs at the PCs. If the PCs are so incredibly strong, it stands to reason that their reputation would have spread, and their enemies would be keeping tabs on them. Assume that intelligent baddies are more or less aware of the PCs' actions, intentions, strengths, and weaknesses, and have them use that information to their advantage.

I would also suggest trying to err on the side of making encounters a bit too hard. It's a lot easier to conveniently "forget" a bonus or ability here and there if the players prove to struggle a bit too much than it is to try to make the encounter more challenging if it becomes apparent that the players are shredding your beasties like tissue paper. If your players notice the change and call you out on it, you can even claim it was a planned part of the encounter, that the creature some kind of short-term buff that wore off or that the damage the PCs had done weakened the enemy or something.

Finally, with regard to your rules lawyer's complaints, it's important to note that players can have a tendency to underestimate their own abilities and chances of success. I know I personally am very much guilty of this -- as soon as things start to look the least bit tough, I start to panic and fret that we're in way over our heads and a TPK is just around the corner, even when in reality we might be doing not merely just fine, but extraordinarily well compared to what the DM had planned. Ultimately, what's really important is that the players feel challenged. Not to say that you shouldn't try to make the encounters actually be a challenge, but rather that even if they're not very challenging, as long as the players feel like they're up against a serious threat then you're still more or less on the right track.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Use more monsters and give them bigger numbers.

Either use higher CR opposition, replace ogres with hill giants for example, or buff the ones you are using - more hit points, better saves, more damage, higher level magic, whatever you think they need. Don't go by the book, ie don't follow the 3.5 guidelines for advancing, applying templates, etc, it just wastes time.

Better tactics would also work, but this is much easier and saves your precious time and GM headspace. Play to your strengths. If you're not good at tactics just accept it, it's easy to compensate for anyway.

Also: The tendriculos, from the MM, and the Thrym hound, from MM5, are very under-CRed. AC39? CR10? WTF!!?

Also also: Improved Grab is deadly.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm running a D&D3.5 game and just about everything I throw at my players gets sliced and diced and thrown over their shoulder like it was nothing. This -INCLUDES- high level boss fights.

Welcome to the board, and thanks for bringing up one of my favorite topics: knocking PC's down a step.

There has even been more than one occation where one character or another got separated from the main group, and managed to take on an entire combat encounter, designed for the whole group, by their lonesome.

Let me guess how you got into this situation:

1) You accepted a large amount of splatbooks into your game, letting your players optimize their characters heavily.
2) You've been throwing the players into straight forward fights involving basicly empty 40'x50' rooms, flat terrain, and against monsters which are recognizable to the players and have no particularly surprising abilities.
3) Your players have a lot of system mastery but you don't.
4) You've been trusting the CR system.

Any one of those things will get your monsters spanked by a compotent party of players, and you've probably got at least 3 of the problems if not all four.

There is help. You've come to the right place.

Any suggestions?

Ok, so if you've allowed every official splatbook, feat, class, PrC, and so forth ever printed by WotC in to the game (to say nothing of third party material), you've got a problem that can't be perfectly recovered from. There is too much brokenness out there and while you can compensate by altering the EL of your encounters ultimately this is an imperfect solution. The PC's will either tend to be glass cannons that can knock down monsters quickly but themselves break just as fast, or else your combats will tend to run a bit longer than they might with more opponents that you would have needed before. Neither is a fatal problem, just advising you in the future to be more circumspect about adding lots of non-core material. The more material you add, the more optimized your characters will be and the more problems will tend to result from that.

Two, you're the DM, so you're going to have to get a degree in, to use the technical term, bastardy. It is an essential skill of DMing to be able to not miss tricks, challenge your players, and generally make life (as thier character) rough on them so that the moments of triumph will be all that much sweeter. I find that there are several important skills in this. Some of those skills are hard and will come with experience, but others just require a change of mind set and you'll be able to adopt them readily.

* Force the characters to fight in terrain that favors the monster. Have the encounter occur in a place with pits and drop offs, bogs, pools of water, slippery surfaces, ledges, moats, and so forth that force the players to fight at a disadvantage and a potential risk. Use the monsters climb speed or flying ability or stealth capabilities to make the fight less straight forward. If the players like to charge, because to have the terrain littered with rubble and uneven surfaces, so that charging or moving quickly without falling down requires jump or balance checks. This makes your combat more exciting and will tend to throw your players more off balance as well. You'll also be surprised I think to discover how much something like obscuring mist confuses players if you take away their minatures and the map and instead move the minatures and the map behind the screen and ask the players to play without perfect information. Total darkness is even more 'fun'.
* Disguise your monsters. Instead of saying, "You see a wraith.", or "You see a manticore." simply describe the monster in generic horrifying ways. Better yet, redress the monster stat block in a totally different monster. It's perfectly all right to have a stone giant stat block, and yet describe the monster as a tentacled horror from the dungeon dimensions spitting its teeth at the players. The reason for doing this, beyond keeping the encounters fresh, is that one of the reasons its hard to challenge experienced players is that if they have perfect knowledge of their foes, they tend to have a canned perfect plan for dealing with it as well. If they don't have perfect information, then they'll tend to hestitate, become confused, waste actions, and loose party cohesion even when on paper the fight is in their favor because they don't know that it is in their favor. This gets even easier when you drop templates on the stat blocks. Be creative. I find that for a lot of DM's that are tactically challenged, creativity isn't something that they are lacking.
* Learn to think tactically. This is a hard skill and you won't get it immediately, but if you come back frequently and ask 'How should I run this encounter in order to maximize the difficulty', I'm sure you'll have no end of people wanting to help. As a primer, try this thread: Playing monsters smart.html

Three, and on a related point, learn the rules. You're going to have to know the grappling rules by heart. You're going to have to know the tricks as well as your players. The good news is that you have the perfect teachers - the players themselves. Whatever tricks they pull, you pull right back. The players will teach you how to optimize your villains for you, and how to maximize tactical advantages. You just have to copy their lead.

Four, learn the limitations of and how to abuse the CR system. In general, humanoids are vastly over CR'd, especially when they aren't optimized. Instead, advance monster HD to make nastier monsters, or apply templates to a monster where the template specifically makes up for one of the monsters real deficiencies. For example, a gelatious cube is limited mainly by its speed, so a template that improves its movement rate is going to be of much more help to it than the CR modification normally indicates. A template that grants fire and acid resistance is going to turn a lowly troll into a undying terror. Templates that grant flight and/or resistance to mind control to brute monsters will stop the easy tricks to get around them. And so forth. Also remember what the CR system doesn't track well. An ogre and an ogre in a breastplate with a masterwork two-handed sword are basically the same CR, but one is the much harder fight. Fourth level fighters with masterwork longbows are a much different fight if the party is trapped in a corridor and the fighters have 90% cover behind arrow loops, and a few have flaming oil, and so forth. Try to get as much bang as you can for your buck. As a general rule, when trying to challenge my players, I tend to avoid single powerful opponents. My favorite challenges usually involve pitting a party of say 4 against four to eight foes of roughly CR = party level - 2. So if you must use humanoids, keep in mind that if your party is level 10, twice as many level 8 NPC's operating as a team may turn out to be a much harder fight than a single level 14 NPC. Or at the very least, chances are they won't go down to a single bad die roll the way a single foe might. And as another positive effect in my opinion, it reinforces the idea that the PC's are pretty special rather than the idea that everyone out there is higher level than they are. Mixed groups of monsters and humanoid villains work pretty well as well.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Hi.

There is always the thing you might just be under-using monsters abilities. This happens to me too sometimes I miss something that would have made combat much more harder but usually after it's over. Your rulelawyer might even be right about their low-power-level especially what comes to items, but if they know the rules and use valid tactics and know some meta-things about monsters it might change things into their favours if you aren't so good at tactics for each monster. For example underplayed dragon would be just big bag of hit points if it just sits there and takes fighter's full attacks in.

Battles with many mobs are kinda hard to control unless monsters are very simple, otherwise it's easy to forget some bonus-nasty-power. I often forget shadow's' str-drain and the like.

And if you use basic grunts don't make them so that they only hit pc:s ac when you roll 18+. If you want them to be dangerous and not just distraction, that is.

Also if it is alone, no matter how badass it looks on paper pc:s are going to end up on top because they have more actions because of their numbers. There are only few things that keep toe-to-toe melee mop up for long. Many hit points, high AC, damage reduction which actually works against pc:s, 5/- is quite enough. Fireshields and similar spells/effects which do auto damage when pc:s hit them. Or karmic strike path to have something to say for pc:s economy of actions.

If monsters have spellcasters make sure they fight buffed (stoneskin is good for many mages) and also buff their adds. Make sure you have effects calculated next to normal stat-block. So you don't just forget about them.

CR system as stated up, doesn't really work. It overprices spelllike abilities and the like, those that get underused and often lack power because DC:s are really lame.

I personally find Pathfinder bestiary monsters better made, I have started using them even at my 3.0+0,5 D&D games.

 

[Drowbane]

Throw out your MM. Or well at least retire it to the book shelf to thumb through from time to time...

3.5 is a bitch to run if you allow yourself to be restricted by the Designer's. Know your players, known their PCs. Design encounters around their PCs and usual tactics. Some on these boards would call this "the 4e approach", I call it "veteran DMing".

Have your players send you the following info.
* Relevant skills
* HP, AC, Saves, DR
* To hit and damage with their primary attack mode.
* To hit and damage when going "all out" (Power attack, sneak attack, whatever they have).
* Favorite spells.
* Equipment, all of it.
* All of the above while completely buffed.

Once you have and know that data, you can start building encounters. With those numbers in mind, plan for easy, moderate and difficult (potential TPK) encounters. For your next session, try to run one of each of those. You may find that your data is incomplete, as Players are shifty and "forget" to tell you things. Thats fine, make notes, upgrade your info.

If your groups ACs are 15, 17, 19, and 27. then the easy critters should have anywhere from a +5 to a +9 to hit. This will make the high AC guy feel like "hey, my high AC is awesome!" without totally trashing the rest of the party. The serious critters should have at least a +17 to hit...

All PCs should have a weakness, newer powergamers try to fill in all possible weaknesses because they're asshats and don't yet know better. Look at the party defenses (AC, including Touch and Flat-Footed, Fort, Ref, and Will). Design encounters so that at least one critter can attack each defense type.

Finding the sweet spot will take some time, do not be afraid of trial and error. Once you get better at designing encounters, aim for the TPK. Try to make encounters that the PCs "might be able to win, but can totally wipe those jerks out if they roll badly".

Be the Rat-Bastard DM, but don't over do it either. Your goal is not to actually wipe the party, rather to bring back the fear of death to the PCs.

edit: Oh, and welcome to ENworld! Welcome home...

 

[Greatwyrm]

I'll take the dissenting opinion I guess. Let them win themselves into failure.

Congratulations, Count McEvil has now been vanquished. Would you like to take over his lands? It'll mean a lifetime of fighting off political plots, assassins, and foreign powers. Of course, you could always walk away, leaving the serfdom to suffer and die in a protracted civil war.

 

[Scott DeWar]

My first thought is to switch to 3.75 aka pathfinder rpg. However you may not hace to totally change over. useing the xp budgeting method p.f. uses, you can create a mixture of encounter monsters.

for example:

if the party is average level of 10, with 6 players. that means you have apl of 11 with an xp budget of 12,800 xp of encounter.
orc base : 135 xp
advanced (special squad training or such) +1 cr
effect: +2 to ac (natural); +4 to all abilities
+1 level of ranger 1 squad of archers on each side of ambush point
+1 level of barbarian 1 squad eac in waves of foot solders attack the rear
1 squad = 8; 2 advancements now make each 'simple' orc = 400 xp
8*4*4=12,800 xp. for a tougher encounter add terain (Dense Rubble: The ground is covered with rocks of all sizes.
It costs 2 squares of movement to enter a square with dense
rubble. The DC of Acrobatics checks on dense rubble
increases by 5, and the DC of Stealth checks increases by 2.) Pathfinder SRD ogl

throw in a couple of avalanche traps and now the average encounter is a challenging one

so in summery: an ambush set in a gorge with dense rubble all about it, the party sets to traverse it. halfway they are set upon be 8 arrows from the left and right by orcs with an attack of at least +7 (ranger +1; warrior +1; comp str long bow +5)

and now from out of nowhere come 2 waves of raging barbarian orcs (another 16 orcs) who had all drank potions of invisibility. Attacks would be at least +10
(warr +1; barbn +1; str +5; chargeing +2; mwk +1)

sometime along the way, the two avalanche traps are released, sandwiching the party.

not gnasty enough?
add 1 level 9 wizard orchestrating and throwing fireballs, magic missiles ......

are we haveing fun yet? mua ha ha ha ha!!!

 

[blargney the second]

A single optimized PC at any level can increase the party's effectiveness massively. If you have multiple, optimized, high-level characters and they're engineered to force-multiply each other, then you've got your work cut out for you.

Here are some suggestions:
1) Split the party. The various wall spells are brilliant for this, as are traps.
2) Buff the monsters. Watch the anguish creep across your players' faces when monsters drink potions before a fight. Haste is deadly.
3) Break their stuff. Sundering and disjunction are in the game for a reason, and they are powerful weapons.
4) Debuff the PCs. There are boatloads of spells and special abilities that can completely nerf PCs. Ray of enfeeblement is *harsh*, and so are stacking fear effects. Prone is worse - trip their asses!
5) Own their weaknesses. Go after the chinks in their armor: ability damage/drain, touch ACs, Will saves on melees, and Fort saves on squishies.
6) Play the D&D Miniatures game. A few games of DDM will massively increase your warband piloting skills, and they are highly transferable for DMing. You'll also be exposed to some monster abilities that you'll then see in a new light.

Special note: a pack of allips is thoroughly frightening.
-blarg

ps - A +5 vorpal sword of wounding with Weapon Focus and Specialization doesn't mean jack when you have to choose between saving Gwen Stacy and a bunch of civilians.

 

[blargney the second]

Extra special note for anybody who wants to improve their skill in any game at all ever: learn how to milk the action economy for every single smidgen of advantage.

Start with Lanchester's Laws. Your life will never be the same.
-blarg

ps - If the Wikipedia article is daunting, try this one out on Gama Sutra.

 

[Lord Ipplepop]

In a group I used to be a part of, our main DM ran just shy of Monty Haul. At 4th level, we decimated a young red dragon with very little loss to the party. The experienced players were getting a bit bored because the challenge was not there. The missions were decent and well thought out, they just weren't challenging.

I got a chance to DM for the group, and took them through a good, old-fashioned dungeon crawl. Unfortunately, they could only take so much in the dungeon with them. The players had to decide which of their possessions to get out of the wagons and saddlebags. when they finished the adventure and exited the dungeon, the horses were either dead or gone, the wagons were gone or burning, and all of their toys were toast.


As it turned out, while my character was standing guard over the gear, a band of orcs surprised him and took everything. The party- of course- showed up just in time to save him from death (cure lights at -7hp), but now, they had to deal with what they had,and the missions became more challenging.

Also, "monsters" do not want to die an more than players do. They will do anything, fair or unfair, to survive. They will cheat, they will attack from the shadows, they will ambush, they will use magic, they will fight 2 against 1"( or 3vs1 or worse). The best way to keep a player humble is to get their player to damned near dead. As long as you "play fair" and don't cheat them (ancient black dragon vs 5th level players), they have nowhere to complain.