Dragonsbane
Proud Grognard
I have been a DM since the 1980s, and I am thrilled with 5e. Especially the 6 saves, the spells, the lack of a christmas tree of items . . . but my players were unhappy. Below is their critique, and I am hoping to get some tips to help them like the game more as well as some validation from people in the forums that I am not crazy to be so into the new rules.
All comments are appreciated!
And now their critique:
I see you are a fan of positive thinking good sir Harris. I’m about to point out every problem with this system, which is more or less everything that isn’t the combat chapter.
But before I take it through the dirt I shall tell you what I like so you don’t deem me a naysayer and dismiss arguments.
THE GOOD : Combat is superb, every class feels strong in its own way and has a place and time to shine. Even at high lvls where caster in pathfinder throw shade on everything, in 5th ed. It feels less so. I loved the moment when I asked about the barbarian’s HP after 2 fireballs and he was like “Pff… fly bites” where as I was hurting bad. And I got to shine when the angle attacked us. The disadvantage and he curse really messed up his day. I was on the back foot with all the concentration spells and all the different actions they require but I liked it in use and I liked the ability to finally use my minor action as a spellcaster. I also like the flexibility of the new spellcasting system, it feels nice and if it fits your vision, even better, a big improvement to combat is also the attack action, no longer do fighters and barbarians have to be stuck in one place like a tree in order to be most effective. Movement is fun, who knew. I also think that the skill system is good – streamlined and easy to use. I liked the customization of pathfinder, but this one does the job admirably. And that is it more or less.
Now THE BAD: And trust me there is a lot of it. Almost everything that it’s before mentioned falls in here so I will not open my book and start going page by page. Let’s start with my biggest gripe – the lovely backgrounds. Yes you know my problems with this – “You don’t limit your player’s creativity game” Yea it’s cool that your history matters but you just don’t. At least they are easy to make, but if you have to make 100 of them why don’t they just give you – Here this is what you can pick, mix and match it until you are happy. It’s not like the special skill ever comes in handy anyways. And then they talk about personality – the fabled IBF. Here there be the basics of your character. This mechanic I’m sad to say is useless for us. I’m extremely happy that I managed to find a group with excellent gamers such as your selves as to make it obsolete. It is useful in only the most wargamy of groups, and if indeed you are playing with wargamers that just want mechanical challenge and you are trying to force RP on them, well I have to tell you are not playing the right game with the right people. Another thing that you have noticed already 4x6 makes about 24 more things the GM has to keep track, and how do you do it when everyone is bringing his A game to the table, you have to just constantly give out inspiration. “I use inspiration to kill the angle, than I mutilate his corpse and get inspiration because I have a Ideal to destroy beautiful things. I use my inspiration to persuade someone to betray his friend then I get in immediately back because I have a Personality treat that is all about making people backstab each other” When everything is working fine this system either means you constantly have inspiration, or is just forgotten. And the idea that it encourages mechanic focused gamers to RP is not true. If you are playing for the mechanics this is just one more of them to fallow, they will find the easiest bond to forfill and they will try to do it always even if the party disagrees because that is the mechanic they see. It’s just a big mess when you look into it.
We reached Chapter 5 Equipment – now let’s talk of the importance of magical items in a high fantasy game, and the economy of the world of which they are an integral part. So I will just go out and say it. The 5th ed economy is broken, it is wrecked beyond repair, a problem that connects to the reward structure of the game. I will take a look at it before I talk about how it’s broken. So we are adventurers, and we adventure for glory and to improve our social status, but also to become better at adventuring and defeat greater rivals for better rewards. That is our goal. How does the game reward us and help us on the way. The first reward it could give us is inspiration, but as I said it is unclear and random and horrible. And then there is gold ad magic items that we obtain on our journey (Or have not as the case may be, because vampires usually have only scrolls in their treasure hoards). Fewer magical items you say, well that sounds good because before I used to look like a christmas tree whenever someone looked at me with detect magic. In theory it is fine, a great idea even, until you understand that you get them super rarely, thusly being unreliable reward. They are awesome indeed and the abilities associated with them are super cool but big deal because you will find only 3 such items in your 12 lvls of adventuring and that is not to say some of them will not the the usual +1. Yea the feeling of finding that holly avenger in the hoard of the dragon is unmatched, but it is somewhat downgraded by the fact that the lich before him had scrolls of 2 lvl of lower, and the mummy prince before him had a hat that looked really cool. So the designers said,” well we will reward them with more gold if we can’t do it with magical items, that will surely satisfy them” but what can I do with that gold? Buy ponies and that’s about it, can’t buy magical items, they are too rare, can’t improve myself in any way really, so I have more money than god and no way to use it. Usually you will update your magical gear but you can’t do that now so what you are left with is piles of gold. Good job you would be the happiest dragon. So all in all the reward system of 5th ed Is dysfunctional.
Chapter 6. Customization – There be feats here, that while cool and much improved them before and too few to really make an obvious change in your play style. Yea you have what you need for your rogue to dash in and out of combat, and for your mage to be aggressive, but 40 classes, 1000 archetypes, 300 prestige classes and so on. Yea it is safe to say that it needs many more feats to compete with that.
Chapter X Adventuring – goes back around to the problems with the reward system, downtime and social interactions and something that could be broth up but it has 0 mechanical support. I wish I had the DMG so I can really get to the core of these problems, but alas I have to just point some of them out.
Finally I will tell you what I think about “rulings not rules”. I think it is lazy and uninspired way to pander to everyone. Well we didn’t want to tell you how to run your game so you decide. Sorry, but did I but a rule system or a guideline no how to create my own. I thought that you are game designers with years of experience at making games, if I wanted to play make believe I would have done so without spending 120$ for your enlightened opinion. I don’t know if it’s a way to hide incompetence or what the hell it is. A way to pass lazily by and now make functional mechanics for the game? A great game is set apart from a mediocre game when it does something in an amazing way. Burning wheel, has the mechanics to support the kind of gameplay it provides, apocalypse world and stars without number has them, pathfinder for all its downfalls has them. Those are some games that know what they are and know how to support the experience they provide. This we are hip with the kids, so indie and casual talk doesn’t sit well with me. What the mechanics of 5th ed tell me is that I need to kill everything and never live the dungeon, because there the game is at its best. It did unique, innovated nowhere, improved some aspects at the cost of others I give it a solid 6/10 a slightly above average game that is functional until you see its faults and find out that you are actually the boss and have to fix them yourself because “rulings not rules”. It jumps to a 7,5/10 if played the way it is obviously supposed to be played – in short arcs spent mostly fighting.
And that is my hones critique of the game, might have been a big rough on it, but hey, it actually has only the combat as a redeeming feature so I don’t feel as if I were unfair. I’m also sure I skipped some things and I might have not made my point clear enough or compelling enough but well I’m not a pro critique I just play games. But I have watched many of hard core gamers and game designers discuss it and they would mostly agree.
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Iskar brought up most of the pros and cons to 5E. 5E has a good simple system for quick runs but quickly becomes bogged down with lack of direction for a campaign. Not to mention it does not have the variety of pathfinder. All in all certain elements I like (Lair actions, simpler numbers, personality traits) with more dislikes (class variety, some feats rock others are lame, spells are too simplified and not dependent on caster level). You can migrate in the pros into pathfinder and I think the end product would be better than trying to bring the pros from pathfinder into 5E.
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I agree with the others. The lack of customization is what bugs me most of all. I felt that the classes were too similar in terms of gameplay mechanics. Having played both a spellcaster in Brom and a Melee Fighter in Zarroc. They felt suprisingly similar. Zarroc could take more hits and Brom could use a few spells but overall it was move, use similar attack action, turn over. I dont feel that way with Pathfinder, Rylius and Lishtra feel extremely different than say Smiggles or Iskar.
I dont feel as if the power scale makes a difference in 5e i felt as if my 4th level character could take on my 12th. There is no way I would feel like this in pathfinder. This is a numbers thing that I dont believe pathfinder has quite right either but I should never feel as though 8 levels doesnt make that much of a difference
All comments are appreciated!
And now their critique:
I see you are a fan of positive thinking good sir Harris. I’m about to point out every problem with this system, which is more or less everything that isn’t the combat chapter.
But before I take it through the dirt I shall tell you what I like so you don’t deem me a naysayer and dismiss arguments.
THE GOOD : Combat is superb, every class feels strong in its own way and has a place and time to shine. Even at high lvls where caster in pathfinder throw shade on everything, in 5th ed. It feels less so. I loved the moment when I asked about the barbarian’s HP after 2 fireballs and he was like “Pff… fly bites” where as I was hurting bad. And I got to shine when the angle attacked us. The disadvantage and he curse really messed up his day. I was on the back foot with all the concentration spells and all the different actions they require but I liked it in use and I liked the ability to finally use my minor action as a spellcaster. I also like the flexibility of the new spellcasting system, it feels nice and if it fits your vision, even better, a big improvement to combat is also the attack action, no longer do fighters and barbarians have to be stuck in one place like a tree in order to be most effective. Movement is fun, who knew. I also think that the skill system is good – streamlined and easy to use. I liked the customization of pathfinder, but this one does the job admirably. And that is it more or less.
Now THE BAD: And trust me there is a lot of it. Almost everything that it’s before mentioned falls in here so I will not open my book and start going page by page. Let’s start with my biggest gripe – the lovely backgrounds. Yes you know my problems with this – “You don’t limit your player’s creativity game” Yea it’s cool that your history matters but you just don’t. At least they are easy to make, but if you have to make 100 of them why don’t they just give you – Here this is what you can pick, mix and match it until you are happy. It’s not like the special skill ever comes in handy anyways. And then they talk about personality – the fabled IBF. Here there be the basics of your character. This mechanic I’m sad to say is useless for us. I’m extremely happy that I managed to find a group with excellent gamers such as your selves as to make it obsolete. It is useful in only the most wargamy of groups, and if indeed you are playing with wargamers that just want mechanical challenge and you are trying to force RP on them, well I have to tell you are not playing the right game with the right people. Another thing that you have noticed already 4x6 makes about 24 more things the GM has to keep track, and how do you do it when everyone is bringing his A game to the table, you have to just constantly give out inspiration. “I use inspiration to kill the angle, than I mutilate his corpse and get inspiration because I have a Ideal to destroy beautiful things. I use my inspiration to persuade someone to betray his friend then I get in immediately back because I have a Personality treat that is all about making people backstab each other” When everything is working fine this system either means you constantly have inspiration, or is just forgotten. And the idea that it encourages mechanic focused gamers to RP is not true. If you are playing for the mechanics this is just one more of them to fallow, they will find the easiest bond to forfill and they will try to do it always even if the party disagrees because that is the mechanic they see. It’s just a big mess when you look into it.
We reached Chapter 5 Equipment – now let’s talk of the importance of magical items in a high fantasy game, and the economy of the world of which they are an integral part. So I will just go out and say it. The 5th ed economy is broken, it is wrecked beyond repair, a problem that connects to the reward structure of the game. I will take a look at it before I talk about how it’s broken. So we are adventurers, and we adventure for glory and to improve our social status, but also to become better at adventuring and defeat greater rivals for better rewards. That is our goal. How does the game reward us and help us on the way. The first reward it could give us is inspiration, but as I said it is unclear and random and horrible. And then there is gold ad magic items that we obtain on our journey (Or have not as the case may be, because vampires usually have only scrolls in their treasure hoards). Fewer magical items you say, well that sounds good because before I used to look like a christmas tree whenever someone looked at me with detect magic. In theory it is fine, a great idea even, until you understand that you get them super rarely, thusly being unreliable reward. They are awesome indeed and the abilities associated with them are super cool but big deal because you will find only 3 such items in your 12 lvls of adventuring and that is not to say some of them will not the the usual +1. Yea the feeling of finding that holly avenger in the hoard of the dragon is unmatched, but it is somewhat downgraded by the fact that the lich before him had scrolls of 2 lvl of lower, and the mummy prince before him had a hat that looked really cool. So the designers said,” well we will reward them with more gold if we can’t do it with magical items, that will surely satisfy them” but what can I do with that gold? Buy ponies and that’s about it, can’t buy magical items, they are too rare, can’t improve myself in any way really, so I have more money than god and no way to use it. Usually you will update your magical gear but you can’t do that now so what you are left with is piles of gold. Good job you would be the happiest dragon. So all in all the reward system of 5th ed Is dysfunctional.
Chapter 6. Customization – There be feats here, that while cool and much improved them before and too few to really make an obvious change in your play style. Yea you have what you need for your rogue to dash in and out of combat, and for your mage to be aggressive, but 40 classes, 1000 archetypes, 300 prestige classes and so on. Yea it is safe to say that it needs many more feats to compete with that.
Chapter X Adventuring – goes back around to the problems with the reward system, downtime and social interactions and something that could be broth up but it has 0 mechanical support. I wish I had the DMG so I can really get to the core of these problems, but alas I have to just point some of them out.
Finally I will tell you what I think about “rulings not rules”. I think it is lazy and uninspired way to pander to everyone. Well we didn’t want to tell you how to run your game so you decide. Sorry, but did I but a rule system or a guideline no how to create my own. I thought that you are game designers with years of experience at making games, if I wanted to play make believe I would have done so without spending 120$ for your enlightened opinion. I don’t know if it’s a way to hide incompetence or what the hell it is. A way to pass lazily by and now make functional mechanics for the game? A great game is set apart from a mediocre game when it does something in an amazing way. Burning wheel, has the mechanics to support the kind of gameplay it provides, apocalypse world and stars without number has them, pathfinder for all its downfalls has them. Those are some games that know what they are and know how to support the experience they provide. This we are hip with the kids, so indie and casual talk doesn’t sit well with me. What the mechanics of 5th ed tell me is that I need to kill everything and never live the dungeon, because there the game is at its best. It did unique, innovated nowhere, improved some aspects at the cost of others I give it a solid 6/10 a slightly above average game that is functional until you see its faults and find out that you are actually the boss and have to fix them yourself because “rulings not rules”. It jumps to a 7,5/10 if played the way it is obviously supposed to be played – in short arcs spent mostly fighting.
And that is my hones critique of the game, might have been a big rough on it, but hey, it actually has only the combat as a redeeming feature so I don’t feel as if I were unfair. I’m also sure I skipped some things and I might have not made my point clear enough or compelling enough but well I’m not a pro critique I just play games. But I have watched many of hard core gamers and game designers discuss it and they would mostly agree.
=-=-=-=-
Iskar brought up most of the pros and cons to 5E. 5E has a good simple system for quick runs but quickly becomes bogged down with lack of direction for a campaign. Not to mention it does not have the variety of pathfinder. All in all certain elements I like (Lair actions, simpler numbers, personality traits) with more dislikes (class variety, some feats rock others are lame, spells are too simplified and not dependent on caster level). You can migrate in the pros into pathfinder and I think the end product would be better than trying to bring the pros from pathfinder into 5E.
=-=-=-=-
I agree with the others. The lack of customization is what bugs me most of all. I felt that the classes were too similar in terms of gameplay mechanics. Having played both a spellcaster in Brom and a Melee Fighter in Zarroc. They felt suprisingly similar. Zarroc could take more hits and Brom could use a few spells but overall it was move, use similar attack action, turn over. I dont feel that way with Pathfinder, Rylius and Lishtra feel extremely different than say Smiggles or Iskar.
I dont feel as if the power scale makes a difference in 5e i felt as if my 4th level character could take on my 12th. There is no way I would feel like this in pathfinder. This is a numbers thing that I dont believe pathfinder has quite right either but I should never feel as though 8 levels doesnt make that much of a difference
