D&D 5E (2014) My Players Didn't Like 5e :( Help Me Get Them Into It!!

It sounds to me like your players really want to play Pathfinder. It's just my opinion, but the vibe I got from that critique was that of someone who doesn't want to like 5e. As others here have stated, you might be better off letting one of them take over GMing Pathfinder, rather than trying to "force" them to enjoy 5e.

That said, here are a few ideas on making 5e a bit more like Pathfinder, on the off chance that that's all it would take.

Instead of picking Backgrounds from the list, let them pick 2 appropriate skills and 2 appropriate languages/tools. Also work with them on some RP benefit befitting their concept (as an alternative, you could replace that with 13th Age's One Special Thing). Forget about Ideals, Bonds, and Traits. I don't think they were meant for wargamers (who'd be likely to ignore them) but rather fledgling role-players, who might find it useful to have a simple framework in place for guiding how their character should behave. Instead, just have them write a background and use that. When they role-play well, grant them Inspiration. Or if they simply don't like Inspiration, just drop it completely. It won't break anything.

Next, give the players things to spend gold on. A simple option, which might appeal to those who like Pathfinder, is to come up with a short list of magic items that are available for sale in a location. Depending on the nature of your campaign, the PCs might need to make an effort (digging up rumors, tracking down shady black marketeers, etc) to find out what's available. The DMG has rough guidelines for prices by rarity, and you can adjust that up or down based on circumstances. It seems like your player was saying he'd like to see more magic items. It might make the game a bit easier, but you can always make encounters more difficult to compensate, so I'd say increase the availability of magic items overall.

The reality is that it would be basically impossible for a game that's only existed for one year to compete with a game that's been pumping out new options for 15 years in terms of options. That said, you can find plenty of fan generated content here on ENWorld (go to Resources in the menu and click Databases) and elsewhere. You need to look them over with a critical eye and adjust them sometimes, but it can help quickly expand the options available. Odds are, however, you won't come near the breadth of Pathfinder, but you can definitely expand the available feat, races and archetypes by doing so.

Point out to them that "rulings not rules" is just the equivalent of Rule 0, albeit a bit more 1e in its philosophy. Unless I'm somehow imagining a 300+ page PHB filled mostly with rules sitting next to me. ;)

Overall though, it doesn't seem to me that these changes would make the difference. If they want to play Pathfinder, then that's the way it is. At least they were willing to try playing 5e.
 

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Great responses! A wide variety of views.



We played a few modules I converted over, namely I3 Pharoah and CI Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, plus a few high level evil PC sessions. Maybe 12 sessions in all, 8 of which were 3rd/4th/5th level, and 4 which were 13th level evil PCs.


Well, at least it sounds like they played the game enough to form honest opinions about it.

Hope you can all find a system that satisfies everyone.
 

Sounds like your players are interested in a "player vs. game" style of play that's a bit more MMO-like. They want clear progression in character power levels that's under their control and not subject to DM whim.

As others have said, it's fine if 5E just isn't the style of game they want to play and I wouldn't try to force it, but if you want to make changes that would make them happier with 5E, I'd suggest:

Drop inspiration completely. It's really not needed. Or reduce it to something completely mechanical, like everyone gets inspiration after a short or long rest.

Point out that they can (per RAW) choose any combination of skills and tool/language proficiencies they want when making a background.

Give them a way to buy magic items. This is a big one, and it will probably break the game. BUT, I suspect your players will have fun breaking the game this way, and you can refine the system over time.
 

Have other readers of this thread who've played a bunch of 5e felt like 4th level characters are comparable to 12th level characters in general? In specific instances? It seems crazy to me, but I don't have enough experience with actual play of high level 5e characters to know.

I think it's a matter of scale. In 5e, a 4th level character is nowhere near the power of a 12th level character, but in PF the gap between them is significantly greater.

In 5e, a solo 1st level Fighter could reasonably take on one orc in a straight-up melee. By 20th level, he can probably take about 20 orcs. In PF, a solo 1st level Fighter can also take on about one orc. But by level 20 he can take on a ridiculous number of orcs - I couldn't tell you how many, but I'd guess at least 100.

In 5e, a 4th level character fighting a 12th level character is going to die. But it might take 2 or 3 rounds. In PF, odds are that the 4th level character will be a damp stain in round 1.

So it's not that characters don't scale in 5e, it's simply that the scaling isn't as extreme as in PF. To me that's a major feature, because I felt that 3e moved characters into the superhero genre way too fast for my tastes, but I can understand why some people prefer it.
 

OP: Your player(s)--whoever wrote that diatribe--sound insufferable. They seem to dislike 5E because it's not Pathfinder, and like Pathfinder for all the reasons that so many others have moved away from it. To put it another way, they sound unnecessarily cynical.
 

I'm with those who think your players have just decided they don't like 5E. You could address their complaints point by point; but why bother? The number of times I have seen logical debate change somebody's subjective opinion of something can be counted on no hands. And since they have already played the game a fair bit, play experience is obviously not going to change their minds either.

So, you have the following options:

  • Run Pathfinder, which is clearly what your players want.
  • Hand over the DM hat to someone else who will run Pathfinder.
  • Find some other system that both you and your players like, and run that.
The first option is the easiest solution, but don't do it unless you yourself can be happy running PF. As DM, you will be putting in the lion's share of the work. You should not run anything you don't actively enjoy. I suspect that if you were basically fine with Pathfinder, you wouldn't be here asking us for help, so this one is probably out.

The third option is ideal. If you can find such a system, go for it. That said, the search for the perfect system is a long, difficult, and often fruitless quest... particularly if your players take the attitude, "We know what we want, so we're not going to help you look for something you want. You have to find the perfect system all by yourself and serve it to us on a platter."

If all else fails, then, take door number two. If you really don't like running Pathfinder, and your players really don't like playing 5E, and they aren't willing to help you find a system everyone likes, step aside as DM. Do it with good grace, and play Pathfinder with a smile.
 

Hiya!

As others have stated, it sounds like your player(s) just prefer PF more. In all that 'critique', nothing was actual "rules problems"; everything stated was a personal preference issue. You'll note that there wasn't any "game mechanics" mentioned being "broken". The closest I read was when he mentioned Feats, saying some are really good, some really bad, and there aren't enough of them (still, subjective "good/bad", but the closest to actual broken game mechanics).

I don't think you have any chance of converting them to 5e's style right now. Right now it seems like they are seeing PF through rose-coloured glasses (something I get accused of when looking at old BECMI/1e adventure modules and stuff....but I digress). They see all this "choice" and "open-ended capabilities", along with getting lots of gold and being to buy magic items to customize their character just right...they see this as superior to a DM adjudication and imagination method of campaign management and balance.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are the DM of PF 95% of the time, right? All these players just play and never, or rarely, take up the DM shield? And if they do, its only for a short period of time? Like, three or four sessions? Yeah, that's what 3.x created; a generation of "Me me me! I want all the stuff! I want it NOW! Give it to me or I'll stomp my feet and cry about you not being a good DM because you can't use the rules to challenge us!" (before everyone bites my head off, no, I don't believe all 3.x'ers are like this...but there is definitely a vocal minority, and the silent majority seems to be to sheepish to stand up to said minority). Anyway, I'd bet copper to platinum that if you outright refused to DM PF...ever again..., but will happily play it..., well, I think you'd have some more appreciative players after a year or so.

Different strokes, different folks and all that. Just accept that right now they don't like 5e. Maybe after a year or three, when more stuff is out for it (re: more "optional crap put out by 3rd party and WotC"), they'll change their minds. Or they'll change their minds for sanity-preservation reasons... seeing as they will be the ones being forced to DM PF and deal with all the, er, "peculiarities" of that system.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Lots of better games out there, including 5.5 other editions of D&D and D&D clones like Hackmaster and Pathfinder, no need to force them to do something they don't want.
 

Your players want a more complex, more developed, not necessary richer, but more expansive system with more rules for them to tinker with.

It sounds more to me like your players are powergamers. 5E does not cater to powergamers.

I suggest, as others have before me, that if you are enjoying the faster, simpler combat of 5E, you let one of your players run their own game in the system the table enjoys the most, because it's going to be a very long time, if ever, that 5E gets the material up to the point they want. Which really seems to be their running gripe: there isn't enough.
 

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