D&D 5E My Players Didn't Like 5e :( Help Me Get Them Into It!!

[DEFCON 1]

If you are the DM and you find Pathfinder more cumbersome to run... you tell your players that. You tell them that you're tired of running Pathfinder and that you want to stop. And there it is.

If your players balk... you tell them that while 5E has less options than Pathfinder for players, it is much easier to run for DMs. So if they want you to keep running a game, you ask them to switch to 5E for a while to make it easier for you (and hopefully they come around to it and don't find it as worthless.) If they refuse and demand to stay with PF, then you tell them one of them can DM then cause you don't want to anymore. Simple. You've facilitated their enjoyment of D&D for many years... they now can do the same for you this one time.

And should they agree to try 5E so that you stick with DMing... you can even be extra-nice and accommodating to them by not using some of the aspects of 5E they don't like-- the Inspiration mechanic for instance. That's not actually necessary to the game, so if the BIFTs bother them that much, don't use them. There are plenty of things in 5E that you don't have to use if it bothers them that much, although I imagine once they start playing, they'll realize many of their concerns are not as big of deals as they are making them out to be.

 

[Gnarl45]

If your players don't like 5e, why bother trying to get them into it? There are many great games out there. Back in 2013 it might have made sense to pick D&D over another game for it's superior support but now D&D is one of the least supported games out there. Even smaller editors like Goodman Games or Frog God Games have more support for their game than D&D!

 

[Mistwell]

You should start by giving them options for things they can spend their money on. It's not magic items (and the idea that the only reward for playing is magic items isn't a good one). They need bigger more interesting things to buy - a ship - a tower - a tavern - hereditary rights and a title - land - a caravan - followers -etc.. These things are a lot more interesting than magic items anyway. I mean, they claim combat works well, and then seem to want magic items to make combat go easier?

A lot of this is in your hands as DM. These are players who want to take apart the system so they can use it better - but the system is a lot of tools for a DM, rather than a hard coded manual for players to dissect. So you have to craft a setting that satisfies what these players are looking for.

 

[Ristamar]

The Inspiration "problem" is fixable. There are a lot of alternate methods for handling/modifying the mechanic if you look around the web. You can also tie XP awards to gold and other treasure. Finally, the chapter on Personality and Background clearly states you can make your own or swap features, given the DMs approval. The list they provide isn't set and stone, and there are already a ton of fan-made backgrounds. Ideally, the DM should create, modify, and tailor backgrounds to his own campaign or world, so almost any pregenerated Background used verbatim will be suboptimal.

As for "rulings not rules"... personal preference, and as others have mentioned, since it is baked into 5e's design, there likely isn't much you can offer to placate them.

I did find this line amusing...

So we are adventurers, and we adventure for glory and to improve our social status, but also to become better at adventuring and defeat greater rivals for better rewards.

...especially since it came shortly after a section detailing what awesome gamers they all are (i.e. not "wargamy") for not exploiting the Inspiration mechanic. It shouldn't be hard to find motivation for adventuring beyond gold and glory, with or without the PHB background system.

 

[DaveMage]

Yeah, I think 5E is a very solid system with a lot to like, but those who love 3.x/Pathfinder magic item rules and more rules overall (rather than DM fiat) may struggle with 5E.

For me, I think the perfect D&D lies somewhere between 5E and Pathfinder.

 

[Jester David]

Players or player? That diatribe seemed like a singular vision? Or is it one holdout being vocal and a bunch of easier going players following along?


The magic item critique is a little flawed. It's not that magic items don't exist or that you won't get any (you'll actually get a lot) it's just that magic items are not in the player's hands any more and are not assumed for the math of the game.
This means you don't HAVE to spend all your gold of magic items just to remain competitive with the monsters. 3e/PF and 4e assume that all of your gold is either going to permanent magic items or consumable magic items with none being spent on anything else. You really didn't get treasure, you got payments on a new +3 sword.
Which led to the awkward situation of adventurers seeking treasure to buy magic to fight harder monsters to buy magic to fight harder monsters... There was never a clear motive for the adventure, and only ever the illusion of progress.
Gold you get in 5e is pure bonus. And any magic item you gain makes you better.

But, yeah, magic items are no longer part of the PC's build and players can no longer pick and choose magic like they would feats or skill ranks. Which is awkward for anyone who likes the game-within-the-game of "build the character".


Other than that, arguing with the players won't seem to do much good. The person in the post seems super opinionated to rant that much about his dislikes. Engaging him in a debate will only make him defensive. So don't even try. You're not going to convince him with words/
The best way would be to mandate a small mini campaign. Something to actually let them try the game and see it in action for a set length of time (more than a session). And after that you can decide. Present it as a trial game. If they don't like it, it was a nice break to the regular campaign and a chance to try a different type of character, and everyone can get back to what you were running previous. If they like it, they can start a new 5e campaign (or convert the existing campaign) over.
Grab an adventure and convert. Either find a classic you like from 1e/2e. Or maybe a 3e one like Red Hand of Doom. Or grab a Pathfinder one. Tears at Bitter Manor might be good. Something that starts after 1st level, so they can get a taste of higher level play.

Just ask that they keep an open mind and try and have fun. If they're not even trying to enjoy themselves, then any feedback they give will be coloured.


There might be some sunk cost fallacy or edition warring at work. If the players have spent a lot of money on Pathfinder then they're incentivized to keep using that game. (Who buys the game books? Who bought the 5e books?)

 

[Remathilis]

Tell the author of that diatribe you'll be happy to play Pathfinder for a while, but (s)he's GMing it.

I had a mild issue with this involving players who (initially) weren't keen to 5e. I thought about what I would do if I had to play Pathfinder again. Here is some of the things I would do if the only game I play with my group was Pathfinder.

1.) CORE RULEBOOK ONLY. You like the simplicity of 5e's core, right? Remove 90% of Pathfinder's splat. Paizo themselves just went that route for their second organized play system; "Pathfinder Core" If Core Only is a little too restrictive, allow the old CRB + one supplement (APG, UM, UC). Another easy splat cutter is no "Golarion specific" books; only the core line is allowed.

Bonus Points: Core Only fixes problems with Summoners, Gunslingers, Nova Magus's, and a bunch of other problems later books added.

2.) Use Modules, especially at high levels. GMing 10+ Pathfinder is an exercise in number crunching that would make an accountant proud. Modules usually help fix the burden of making thousands of stat blocks for high level NPCs, traps, and encounters. You can even adapt higher-level APs, and if push comes to shove, convert up the catalog of WotC and Goodman stuff as well.

3.) Pathfinder Unchained is your Friend. Seriously, PFU reads partly like a reaction to 5e anyway, so start mixing OFFICIAL PATHFINDER FIXES into your game to get some of those elements you like. Don't like the skill system? How about about a 5e inspired 10 skill list? Don't like the "dump coin, get +1" system of magic items? They have a limited item system that grows with PCs.

4.) End your campaigns early. Kinda mean, but at a certain point Pathfinder goes from fun to painful. Find that point, and wrap up your campaign there. Not every story ends with level 20 heroes fighting Orcus.

In essence, if your group won't come to 5e, bring 5e to them by making their preferred system behave like YOUR preferred system. You won't get 100% of what you want, but neither should they. Your the GM, you get a say in this too.

 

[SigmaOne]

Can you tell us how much you have actually played 5e with these players, how many campaigns, up to what levels, and over what actual time span? When the player says "I feel like my 4th level character could take on my 12th" are these two actual characters that were played from first level in different campaigns? What characters were they?

Have other readers of this thread who've played a bunch of 5e felt like 4th level characters are comparable to 12th level characters in general? In specific instances? It seems crazy to me, but I don't have enough experience with actual play of high level 5e characters to know.

I was going to write a lot more, but I erased it, because frankly it would most likely start an internet argument, which for health reasons I'm trying to avoid. (I know.. wtf am I doing on rpg forums then?)

I'm really interested in knowing how much your players have actually played 5e before writing what they've written, because I disagree very much with those who've responded that your players seem to understand 5e quite well. What I read from your players reads like the diatribes that were made about the various mechanics during the playtest when people first heard about them but before people started really playing 5e.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now THE BAD: And trust me there is a lot of it. Almost everything that it’s before mentioned falls in here so I will not open my book and start going page by page. Let’s start with my biggest gripe – the lovely backgrounds. Yes you know my problems with this – “You don’t limit your player’s creativity game” Yea it’s cool that your history matters but you just don’t. At least they are easy to make, but if you have to make 100 of them why don’t they just give you – Here this is what you can pick, mix and match it until you are happy. It’s not like the special skill ever comes in handy anyways. And then they talk about personality – the fabled IBF. Here there be the basics of your character. This mechanic I’m sad to say is useless for us. I’m extremely happy that I managed to find a group with excellent gamers such as your selves as to make it obsolete. It is useful in only the most wargamy of groups, and if indeed you are playing with wargamers that just want mechanical challenge and you are trying to force RP on them, well I have to tell you are not playing the right game with the right people. Another thing that you have noticed already 4x6 makes about 24 more things the GM has to keep track, and how do you do it when everyone is bringing his A game to the table, you have to just constantly give out inspiration. “I use inspiration to kill the angle, than I mutilate his corpse and get inspiration because I have a Ideal to destroy beautiful things. I use my inspiration to persuade someone to betray his friend then I get in immediately back because I have a Personality treat that is all about making people backstab each other” When everything is working fine this system either means you constantly have inspiration, or is just forgotten. And the idea that it encourages mechanic focused gamers to RP is not true. If you are playing for the mechanics this is just one more of them to fallow, they will find the easiest bond to forfill and they will try to do it always even if the party disagrees because that is the mechanic they see. It’s just a big mess when you look into it.

I did not read the entire thread, so this was probably mentioned, but, don't use backgrounds. Give each PC 2 more skills and let them write up whatever background they want.

Inspirations. You do not need them. Advantage is a crutch. I've handed out 4 inspirations in 6 levels and 2 players still have them. Only use advantage if the rules say so and rarely use it as DM as a modifier. Use +2 or -2 instead.

We reached Chapter 5 Equipment – now let’s talk of the importance of magical items in a high fantasy game, and the economy of the world of which they are an integral part. So I will just go out and say it. The 5th ed economy is broken, it is wrecked beyond repair, a problem that connects to the reward structure of the game. I will take a look at it before I talk about how it’s broken. So we are adventurers, and we adventure for glory and to improve our social status, but also to become better at adventuring and defeat greater rivals for better rewards. That is our goal. How does the game reward us and help us on the way. The first reward it could give us is inspiration, but as I said it is unclear and random and horrible. And then there is gold ad magic items that we obtain on our journey (Or have not as the case may be, because vampires usually have only scrolls in their treasure hoards). Fewer magical items you say, well that sounds good because before I used to look like a christmas tree whenever someone looked at me with detect magic. In theory it is fine, a great idea even, until you understand that you get them super rarely, thusly being unreliable reward. They are awesome indeed and the abilities associated with them are super cool but big deal because you will find only 3 such items in your 12 lvls of adventuring and that is not to say some of them will not the the usual +1. Yea the feeling of finding that holly avenger in the hoard of the dragon is unmatched, but it is somewhat downgraded by the fact that the lich before him had scrolls of 2 lvl of lower, and the mummy prince before him had a hat that looked really cool. So the designers said,” well we will reward them with more gold if we can’t do it with magical items, that will surely satisfy them” but what can I do with that gold? Buy ponies and that’s about it, can’t buy magical items, they are too rare, can’t improve myself in any way really, so I have more money than god and no way to use it. Usually you will update your magical gear but you can’t do that now so what you are left with is piles of gold. Good job you would be the happiest dragon. So all in all the reward system of 5th ed Is dysfunctional.

Hand out what magic feels fun to you. My group of 7 6th level players has about 15 to 18 magic items already. Do what is fun for your table, ignore book guidelines.


Your issue is that you are looking at 5E as if it were set in stone. Get rid of what you don't like, modify some other things, add stuff you love. Fix the game to work for you.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Great responses! A wide variety of views.

Can you tell us how much you have actually played 5e with these players, how many campaigns, up to what levels, and over what actual time span? When the player says "I feel like my 4th level character could take on my 12th" are these two actual characters that were played from first level in different campaigns? What characters were they?

We played a few modules I converted over, namely I3 Pharoah and CI Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, plus a few high level evil PC sessions. Maybe 12 sessions in all, 8 of which were 3rd/4th/5th level, and 4 which were 13th level evil PCs. We didn't have a full campaign going, but I had already converted magical item creation rules and feats into the game, as well as giving the PCs this list for spending gold:

High Level Spending
Spellbooks / spell research
library / shrine / grove
magic items / magical item crafting
keep / stronghold
vehicles / transport
lifestyle expenses
bribes / power groups / politics
supplies / aniomals / horses
NPC wages
research / information
land / mines
armies / patrols