My poor LBEG - what went wrong?

[BSF]

Well, Turning is a bit of a EL breaker and hard to figure into a single encounter. If it works, and why wouldn't it with weak zombies, then the zombies effectively become non-issues. It sounds like the LBEG wasn't really prepped for the party either. Why was the fighter able to waltz across the room and arrive where he could attack?

So it is bad die rolls with good tactics by the party. As well, you might have relied a little too much on the CR charts. Mind you, this isn't a bad thing to do. Sometimes a challenge falls quickly to a specific group and would have been very difficult for another. *shrug* It happens.

What would I do? I would note that low HD undead against my cleric is an opportunity for the Cleric to call down righteous turning wrath on them. Next time, double the zombies so the cleric must use more turning attempts. In the case of the BBEG, make sure the fight takes place on desecrated ground. Keep my low HP magic casters out of single-move range in case I lose init. Also make sure the party can't pull off a charge to get there. I would congratulate the players on good tactics this time around. I would plot my next BBEG with improved tactics in mind and verify EL's with the CR charts with my newfound knowledge. Then, I would taunt them a second time.

 

[devilish]

And shouldn't his desk be in the way of either the fighter &/or the crossbowman?

Mike

The fighter's first attack was to overturn the table onto the gnome.
The gnome stood up on his turn (partial cover of the overturned table), the archer then fired against his cover.

 

[devilish]

Zombies are CR 1/2 creatures - yeah, a decently built cleric's going to nuke them, every time. You will need a lot more than five to really threaten them. Or just move up to ghouls. Zombies are really only appropriate for about levels 1 and 2. I realized that, just like you did, the hard way. When my characters jumped on a boat with a half dozen zombies and a half dozen skeletons and just mowed them down in a round or two -without breaking a sweat or taking a hit. This was right around level 4, too.


jtb

Ah, thanks...good to know I wasn't alone.

Lord Pendragon --- I forgot to add the Psion(3) ... going to the
SRD Encounter Calculator
it gives Party: 4.6, EL 6, Difficulty: Very Difficult -- should be used for 15% of encounters.
But yes, the EL calculators don't take into effect that they're zombies and that
he's a low-hp sorcerer --- the same EL could've been a 5th level barbarian and
5 rats and the encounter would've gone very differently.

Lord Pendragon & BardStephenFox : THANKS for the tactics.

This weekend will be different....

 

[Crothian]

This weekend will be different....

Just try not to come back with a TPK...

 

[pvandyck]

The fighter turned over the table with an attack? I thought you said he walked up (move action) and attacked (you only get one swing when you've moved during the round).

1. He doesn't get multiple swings if he moved during the round.

2. I wouldn't have allowed someone to "turn over a table" onto someone with one of their attacks. It's at least a move action, like "picking up item from floor" is a move action (and provokes AOO - not that that is important in this case). Then, if someone did turn over a table onto someone else, we'd have to hit rolls, etc. (attack with improvised objects don't do much damage) or perhaps a refex save to avoid the table would be required, it's not just an auto to knock the gnome over.

I have a player in my game to that likes to say things like that, usings thing in the environment to cause great problems for my bad guys. Charging guys with tables, ripped-off doors, etc. Grabbing huge rugs from the floor and with another guy, running across the room trying to "net" everything. While I'm probably a party-pooper for balancing ("nerfing" to the players perspective) these tactics with things closer to the rules, they keep my BEG from being viewed like Pippy Longstockings.

pvandyck

 

[Pielorinho]

A few more tactics: a spellcaster, and especially a wizard or sorcerer, should never get her back to a wall. Even clerics want to give themselves room to maneuver, to take that all-important 5' step. And if they get pinned in, it's often to their advantage to move and take an AoO from moving, and then cast a spell, instead of staying in place and hoping for the best.

Being aware of an encounter makes a world of difference. A cleric necromancer ought to spend the first action possible bolstering undead against attacks--if he can do this prior to the fight, so much the better. And then buffing begins. A necromancer would do very well to have one zombie cemented into the ceiling whose task it is to watch the corridor and shout, "Braiiiins! BRAIIIIINSSS!" whenever anyone passes by: it confuses pesky adventurers and gives the necromancer time to prepare.

Daniel

 

[Elephant]

Failing a Concentration check does not provoke an AoO. All it means is that the spell fizzles.

 

[Pielorinho]

I have a player in my game to that likes to say things like that, usings thing in the environment to cause great problems for my bad guys. Charging guys with tables, ripped-off doors, etc. Grabbing huge rugs from the floor and with another guy, running across the room trying to "net" everything. While I'm probably a party-pooper for balancing ("nerfing" to the players perspective) these tactics with things closer to the rules, they keep my BEG from being viewed like Pippy Longstockings.

See, I'd kill for a player like that, and I'd perform dark rituals over my victims to BE a player like that. I'd prefer to balance such play by making tougher encounters and/or by having the bad guys pull the same sort of stunts.

Daniel

 

[devilish]

Just try not to come back with a TPK...

MuhahHA! Thanks for the chuckle..

The fighter turned over the table with an attack? I thought you said he walked up (move action) and attacked (you only get one swing when you've moved during the round).

1. He doesn't get multiple swings if he moved during the round.

2. I wouldn't have allowed someone to "turn over a table" onto someone with one of their attacks. It's at least a move action, like "picking up item from floor" is a move action (and provokes AOO - not that that is important in this case). Then, if someone did turn over a table onto someone else, we'd have to hit rolls, etc. (attack with improvised objects don't do much damage) or perhaps a refex save to avoid the table would be required, it's not just an auto to knock the gnome over.

Hmm...I ruled it as a strength check and dealt 1d6 subdual damage : but I did
use it as a standard action instead of a move action. But there was no attack roll; should've used the improvised object rule. I mis-spoke/remembered :
the fighter didn't strike the first round, he overturned the table.

Pielorinho: I did newbie DM mistake #1 -- I stuck to the module.
The necro had stupid spells memorized (as a hijack, why do most module writers
do this?? My last DM had a fit over "Spider Queen" b/c all the spell casters
had dopey spells memorized.) and back against the wall, with no buffs on him
or the zombies. The setup said that the necro greets them as they walked
in and no buffs (he knew them but didn't have them memorized!).

Better preparation would've had buffs, darkness cast (all the party members are human)
and lots of room for the necro to move.

Oh, wait until the BBEG!!! (I need a page to follow me around chanting
"Remember to not TPK. Remember to not TPK. Remember to not TPK....")

 

[Pielorinho]

Pielorinho: I did newbie DM mistake #1 -- I stuck to the module.

D'oh!

But if it makes you feel better, I still make this mistake 20 years after I began DMing: I constantly have to remind myself that the module-writer DOESN'T always know best, and they usually won't even claim to know best.

On the other hand, don't beat yourself up about this. I bet if you ask the players about it, they'll say they had a blast--and isn't that one of the most important things about DMing? Every now and then as a player it's immensely satisfying to wipe the floor with an encounter; when the DM expects it to be tough, it adds an extra bit of satisfaction to the victory.

As long as every encounter isn't a cakewalk for the players, I'd say you did nothing wrong at all.

Daniel