D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[theCourier]

Or rather, the smallest biggest problem c;

 

[Hussar]

And of course it is you who is contradicting yourself. You claim that halflings have every advantage they could get, are pushed by the designers, yet still remain unpopular,* but at the same time you claim they don't have lore in the published settings and are absent in the modules. So which is it?

LIke I said, I'm going by what I'm told. I'm being told that I'm 100% wrong for saying that they aren't getting pushed by the designers. At the same time I'm 100% wrong for saying that they ARE getting pushed by the designers. So, being tired of being told contradictory things by you guys, I'm still waiting for your guys to pick a lane so we can have a conversation.

See, to me, if they ARE being promoted, then they're failing to gain much traction because they aren't being played very much. OTOH, if NeonC is right, and it's just an issue of promoting them as an option, then, fair enough, promote them and see if they start getting played more. Either way, my concerns are addressed - if they aren't being played, punt them to the DMG. If they ARE being played, then great, job done.

So, again, which is it?

 

[Oofta]

This thread use freely some stat about halfling popularity,
so I make another free assumption base on this amazing long thread,
could we state that the Halfling problem, is THE biggest problem with DnD!

Well, the fact that people like halflings enough that they're willing to defend them ad nauseum seems to indicate that they're reasonably popular.

But sorry, I forgot we should only be able to play the cool kids and jocks. My bad.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Umm, if my raiding party is outnumber 4:1, why in the hell am I attacking? Generally speaking, we're talking about villages right? That means that we're looking at 20-30 people total. 10-15 adults, probably half of which are non-combatant for reasons of age or whatnot. If your village is fielding 20 combatants, that's not a village, that's a fairly major town. Much more likely, your village of 30 people has, maybe 10 combatants at the most. Which, at 2:1 odds, the gnolls are going to munch that village.

Are you actually reading posts to try to understand them or are you just trying to nitpick?

The point of the halfling approach to self defence with slings I suggested is that every single halfling carries one. If there are 20 adult halflings in a settlement then you have almost 20 combatants. There is no halfling militia. Instead Every. Single. Halfling. Carries. A Sling. This is why the halfling approach to self defence works. Sure each individual halfling is weaker than the properly equipped militia members in a human village. But Every. Single. One. Has. A. Sling. This is why, despite the lack of specialist warriors, attacking halfling settlements without a full scale army would be a bad idea.

As for "reasons of age", a halfling reaches adulthood at age 20 - but can probably use a sling effectively from about the age of 14 or 15. And they live until 150 or so - and are still using slings at well over the age of 100. Halflings are community minded and thus aren't going to want to stop doing their part until they physically can't. It's a part of the whole being plucky and lucky thing.

And 20-30 people does not make a village. If we look at the Forgotten Realms settlements by population then 20-80 people is a thorp, 80-400 people is a hamlet, and a village starts at 400 people. 30 halflings isn't a village. It's a single extended family. And yes an extended family of 30 halflings should be able to field 20 or so combatants.

And, since halflings generally live in villages (that whole "don't build large settlements" thing) halflings have a serious problem. There's a very good reason why the Shire was hundreds of miles from anything remotely dangerous.

The Shire also has canonical references to "thousands of willing hands of all ages" and hundreds of people at Bilbo's birthday and in the so-called Scouring of the Shire which in other civilizations would be considered a counter-coup. The Shire itself was massive and the number of hobbits was estimated as tens of thousands.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And, I obviously disagree. It's funny, tielflings and dragonborn are popular because they are cool. So, apparently, cool things are popular. But, halflings aren't cool, but, that's what makes them popular too. So, apparently, being cool and not being cool both make things popular.

Apparently different people like different things. Who'd have thought? I mean some of us even like D&D.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

LIke I said, I'm going by what I'm told. I'm being told that I'm 100% wrong for saying that they aren't getting pushed by the designers. At the same time I'm 100% wrong for saying that they ARE getting pushed by the designers. So, being tired of being told contradictory things by you guys, I'm still waiting for your guys to pick a lane so we can have a conversation.

See, to me, if they ARE being promoted, then they're failing to gain much traction because they aren't being played very much. OTOH, if NeonC is right, and it's just an issue of promoting them as an option, then, fair enough, promote them and see if they start getting played more. Either way, my concerns are addressed - if they aren't being played, punt them to the DMG. If they ARE being played, then great, job done.

So, again, which is it?

They're moderately present in published books and are moderately popular. These things may or may not be related to each other. Simple.

 

[Composer99]

Then why aren't they being used? According to @Neonchameleon, they are only getting lip service and TSR and WotC don't care about them and never have? Or, do you agree with @Faolyn that they are being well used and appear all over the game?

See, this is the problem that I'm running into. I don't know which interpretation you guys are working from. Are halflings well representing in the game, appearing just as often as any other race, and being utilized well? Or, are they getting "lip service" only and if we started giving them some real loving, they'd become a more popular option in the game?

Inquiring minds want to know.

When different people with different perspectives make different counter-claims, it is arguing in bad faith to conflate them.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Besides, my first thought wouldn’t be to push them out of the phb, but to improve them while retaining their core character.

How to do that while leaving room for new races that have a lot of traction?

Even without considering the halfling debate, I think it is fair to recognize that certain non-PHB races have a lot of traction, and would likely get even more traction if they were in the PHB and there was less of a barrier of entry to playing them. I’m thinking genasi (already in the top 10), aasimar (12th despite being a pay-to-play race) and tabaxi (going from the massive amount of fan art I’ve seen online and also being a pay-to-play race).

This is the main reason I’ve pushed back so hard on the “halflings are in the top 9 of 40” argument. It doesn’t make sense to compare races that are shipped with ever PHB with races that you have to pay extra to play. What is more, doing so is a recipe for defending the status quo for being the status quo.

 

[Neonchameleon]

LIke I said, I'm going by what I'm told. I'm being told that I'm 100% wrong for saying that they aren't getting pushed by the designers. At the same time I'm 100% wrong for saying that they ARE getting pushed by the designers.

You're getting told you're wrong when you make hyperbolic and counter-factual statements. As always the position has some nuance.

Halflings are in the PHB. Which means there is some push. But outside the PHB (and especially inside the default Forgotten Realms setting) they are pushed less than any other PHB race, probably including gnomes, and pushed less than some non-PHB races such as Genasi. When you say halflings are getting pushed to the moon you are wrong - and when you say there's no support at all you are wrong.

So, being tired of being told contradictory things by you guys, I'm still waiting for your guys to pick a lane so we can have a conversation.

Have you heard the parable of the blind men and the elephant?

 

[Neonchameleon]

How to do that while leaving room for new races that have a lot of traction?

Races in the PHB take a mere three pages. And halflings are not the bottom race.

Even without considering the halfling debate, I think it is fair to recognize that certain non-PHB races have a lot of traction, and would likely get even more traction if they were in the PHB and there was less of a barrier of entry to playing them. I’m thinking genasi (already in the top 10), aasimar (12th despite being a pay-to-play race) and tabaxi (going from the massive amount of fan art I’ve seen online and also being a pay-to-play race).

This is the main reason I’ve pushed back so hard on the “halflings are in the top 9 of 40” argument. It doesn’t make sense to compare races that are shipped with ever PHB with races that you have to pay extra to play. What is more, doing so is a recipe for defending the status quo for being the status quo.

OK. Just adding a simple fact check here:

• Genasi are not Pay to Play. The Elemental Evil Player's Companion is free. Likewise Goliaths and Aaracokra.
• Variant Aasimar are not Pay to Play - they aren't in the PHB but (alongside the Eladrin subrace of elves) are an example in the DMG of how to design a race.

The only one of the races you list that is actually pay to play is tabaxi.

I think it's fair to recognise that the popular two of the three races you list aren't pay to play. And that outside the PHB halflings aren't actually pushed hard. I genuinely believe that part of the point of the Elemental Evil Player's Companion was as a test to see whether to include the three races included in the same way Races of the Dragon was a test for Dragonborn. And that Genasi have passed the test and should be in the next PHB while Aaracroka have failed despite looking promising and Goliaths are in direct competition with half-orcs. As for Aasimar, they are even benchmarked as Variant Eladrin are in the same book and almost exactly as popular despite Eladrin being Yet Another Elf Subrace; I don't think Aasimar have passed.

So there's a route in - and I expect to see Genasi in the next PHB. I also expect to see Tabaxi in the next round of testing and possibly Aasimar.

Finally, regarding halflings, I'm going to repeat myself:

• Removing races should be done with extreme care.
• It would be ridiculous to remove halflings without removing gnomes; gnomes are objectively less popular than halflings and have less of a control over their niche and less of a unique niche
• It would be ridiculous to remove halflings and gnomes at the same time; removing both existing humanoid small races completely empties a niche
• Removing gnomes but saving as much as can be in the halfling heading would be an idea worth exploring and I think would add to both concepts.
• There's no need to even remove gnomes. The space used isn't huge