D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Chaosmancer]

If my memory has served me correctly you've also insisted that every non-player elf uses magic every day, something that also isn't part of the NPC block

Your memory is wrong. That was not me. I believe that was @Yaarel who I debated on that point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

[I pointed out that you seem to claim halflings pay no taxes]



So someone hacked into your account and wrote this?

I see no way to interpret that as anything but not paying taxes, not contributing to the defenses of whatever region they live in. It may not literally be coin, it could be goods or other services of course.

Then you could ask for clarification instead of assuming I said something that I never said.

Let us say there are two villages. A human village, and a halfling village. Both pay the same taxes.

The human village uses that tax money to make a militia of human soldiers, who fight and die to defend both villages. So if we were to break this into costs

Halfings -> Money
Humans -> Money and Lives

So... wouldn't the humans ask for something to make up that difference? Could it is be food? Sure, it could be food. Could it be goods and services? Sure, it could be goods and services. Could it be higher taxes? Sure, it could be higher taxes. Could it be halfling militia members? Sure, it could be halfling militia members.

And according to the book it is.... nothing. The books are completely silent on the issue. Humans defend the halfling villages, and they ask for nothing at all in return.

So, again, I never said "halflings don't pay taxes" I was accounting for that and then recognizing that humans also pay taxes. And if both are paying taxes, but only one is fighting and dying, the people fighting are going to look for additional compensation in some form. Not just shrug and do it for free.

Ultimately I simply see no reason why halflings would be less able to defend themselves than humans. If they live in a dangerous area, they could possibly set up more effective defenses than humans. In most cases? In most cases they'll support the local government and let them provide the majority of defenses. Like most people in settled lands have always done.

The majority of people, human and halfling alike, live in settled areas where they don't have to worry about defending themselves because there are no roving bands of gnolls. If there are, there's always adventurers running around who are capable.

And ultimately I have never once claimed that halflings are less able to defend themselves than humans. I have in fact REPEATEDLY stated the opposite. That humans and halflings are being held to the same standards.

If you stopped swinging at strawmen in the fog of what you expect me to say, you might actually be able to have a conversation with me. Instead, you are entirely convinced you know my opinion and my responses, and so ascribe to me motives and positions I have never taken.

 

[Oofta]

Then you could ask for clarification instead of assuming I said something that I never said.

Let us say there are two villages. A human village, and a halfling village. Both pay the same taxes.

The human village uses that tax money to make a militia of human soldiers, who fight and die to defend both villages. So if we were to break this into costs

Halfings -> Money
Humans -> Money and Lives

So... wouldn't the humans ask for something to make up that difference? Could it is be food? Sure, it could be food. Could it be goods and services? Sure, it could be goods and services. Could it be higher taxes? Sure, it could be higher taxes. Could it be halfling militia members? Sure, it could be halfling militia members.

And according to the book it is.... nothing. The books are completely silent on the issue. Humans defend the halfling villages, and they ask for nothing at all in return.

So, again, I never said "halflings don't pay taxes" I was accounting for that and then recognizing that humans also pay taxes. And if both are paying taxes, but only one is fighting and dying, the people fighting are going to look for additional compensation in some form. Not just shrug and do it for free.



And ultimately I have never once claimed that halflings are less able to defend themselves than humans. I have in fact REPEATEDLY stated the opposite. That humans and halflings are being held to the same standards.

If you stopped swinging at strawmen in the fog of what you expect me to say, you might actually be able to have a conversation with me. Instead, you are entirely convinced you know my opinion and my responses, and so ascribe to me motives and positions I have never taken.

You previously stated that halflings were freeloaders that contributed nothing. You're making up this notion that halfling will all be draft dodgers, something no one and no lore has ever stated. Nor have they ever stated that all humans are subject to conscription. Almost as if throughout history many countries primarily used mercenaries to fight their wars. Wonder where they got the money.

But I'm sure you'll just twist this around like how I think it's dumb that you arguing that they must use crossbows to be effective.

 

[Cadence]

They do not. Or at least, it is never mentioned.

Is 5e the only edition where the PC races don't get a monster manual write up? Even Mordenkainen's tome doesn't give what a typical encounter would be. It does say they can fend off things... even if the description of how they do so seems more than a bit lacking in some important details for running it using the game rules...

1e had the following (with 2e similar)

Likewise, 3.5 gave:

[As for many things, 4e is off doing its own thing...

]

As for dogs still, I'm guessing it's not the Dwarves riding the Mastiff's in 5e?

So, if the argument is that all Halflings are 4 hp commoners with slings... well, then, yes, it seems like a poor survival strategy and a bizarre thing to posit. If the argument is that most of them are, that feels like a different thing. Presumably a few guards would fit with past precedent and making something believable without disrupting the idea that as a whole they were bucolic commoners. Among the NPCs in the MM, it looks like the picture for the druid might be a Halfling. And the titles of the old tradition (Cook's X) imply what a higher level retired adventurer who returned home might do...

 

[Neonchameleon]

And I guess the doors are always reinforced in this area. And in every halfling town. Funny how these laid-back people have fortresses for homes, with iron-banded doors and thick bars to lock the,

Funny how different people living in different areas have different approaches.

Halflings who live in areas where raids are common take more precautions than ones who do not expect to be raided. How is this remotely complex for you to understand? Why are you arguing that halflings should all be clones and should take exactly the same precautions in risky and non-risky regions.

Halflings in regions where raids are a reasonable possibility deliberately build their homes small and sturdy. Halflings in peaceful regions where there is not much risk build much more airy homes in part because they know they are safe.

Now. Are we talking a halfling settlement where a gnoll attack is a reasonable possibility? Or are we talking a halfling settlement where there hasn't been a gnoll attack in the last century and where equivalent human settlements wouldn't bother with anything like walls or militia?

But, once the door is broken, the gnoll stoops in and starts going through the house, yes. Squeezing rules allow an 8ft creature to move through a 2.5 ft space (that's when the space is considered small) so nearly 4ft is an imediment, but not to the point of a belly crawl.

The prone rules say "crawl", not "belly crawl" - and they only halve your speed. I bet you can't belly crawl at a mere half speed. If they are crawling they are prone.

Man, I thought they were creatures of comfort like hobbits, whose inside of their homes were wooden.

Man, I thought that halflings all came out of the cloning machines identical and ordered their identikit houses from Ikea paying no attention to whether they were likely to be attacked or not.

Good to know they have nothing flammable in their homes and it is all dirt.

Or just that they don't leave the flammable stuff in line of sight of the windows.

I see. So halflings would prepare defenses in case of an attack. They might plan for an attack, train a little, maybe put together a militia.... oh wait.

You mean they might make sure that everyone learned to wield a weapon as a child and knew the environment and where to retreat to? They don't have a formal militia - just the training for everyone to be able to fight.

Are you picturing a goblin warren or a kobold tunnel system? I thought we were talking about a house that was partially buried, like you see in the hobbit movies. You know, one of these
View attachment 140774

Yes, that's a halfling home in a region where attack isn't likely to happen. You can't think of a single way that that entrance could be better concealed? I mean you wouldn't expand the turf to cover those bright yellow walls and make sure that that door was itself camouflaged. And that there was no path leading up to the steps, marked by stones.

That is a halfling home in a peaceful environment and you still can't see it from most sides.

View attachment 140775

This is a halfling house in a peaceful environment. It's also the tallest room in the house because it's the entranceway and meant to be welcoming.

Halflings like tall entranceways. They're comfortable, can welcome other races, and they show that there's no need to build small because of raiders. But in regions where they are expecting gnoll or even human raiders it's a luxury they don't actually need.

But what you seem to actually be describing is closer to this
View attachment 140776

With a better finish, yes. And probably a couple of sections that the halflings have to squeeze through and gnolls can't get through at all RAW.

Oh wait. That just about ends the gnoll threat inside the halfling homes entirely, doesn't it? A section where halflings have to squeeze to get through.

Or are you really telling me that your halflings are all clones that get their furniture from Halfling Ikea and have building layouts that do not reflect any threats in the environment?

And you seemed to have made the assumption that this is "Gnoll Country" that the gnolls are an expected, monthly thing that everyone knows to plan for. Gnolls are nomadic raiders, who can spring up unexpectedly.

I'm making the assumption that this is somewhere where gnolls attacking is a reasonably forseeable threat, yes. Not monthly - but multiple in living memory. Every few years or so.

If gnoll attacks and attacks from other threats are rare enough that humans wouldn't have plans in place to handle them or a functional militia then yes halflings would be in trouble as well.

Now, I suppose you could say that every halfling village near a border would not have windows, have reinforced, iron-banded doors, an extensive tunnel system, plenty of lamps to actually see because they are underground and don't have darkvision, and on and on and on. But. this was a normal halfling community when we started.

No it wasn't. It was a halfling community somewhere gnoll attacks were a predictable problem. And somewhere where it wasn't impossible to have a human village in that area.

 

[Gammadoodler]

This is a halfling house in a peaceful environment. It's also the tallest room in the house because it's the entranceway and meant to be welcoming.

Halflings like tall entranceways. They're comfortable, can welcome other races, and they show that there's no need to build small because of raiders. But in regions where they are expecting gnoll or even human raiders it's a luxury they don't actually need.

It is also a set design for a movie that specifically calls for a full size human man to be inside it, presumably at the same time as the camera, lighting, and sound equipment and crew (also presumably full size human people) required to film scenes on that set.

So it has basically the same design constraints as most halfling houses.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't deny they could - I consider it unlikely that they would. Or at least those who would are extreme outliers. The Ballearic Slingers that the Roman army used as auxillia might have done this - but only at the point that the Romans were using them as mercenaries so everyone learned it because it was the best way of making money (which is far from the reason halflings do).

So I'm saying it's vanishingly unlikely that humans would do something that humans would do as a society something that as far as I am aware that no known human society has ever done. But it's something that completely fits with halfling mindset and values.

Of course I might be wrong and that there have been human societies where everyone carried a sling - and I will gladly drop this objection if you are able to provide the historical research showing me to be wrong?

Okay, so you want to immediately pivot from the game world to the real world. Okay.

How about these three right here. One is a forum of experts on war, one is a reddit used by historians, and one is a cited, researched article

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forums.totalwar.com

Chris Harrison | The Sling in Medieval Europe

Do you know what all three of them say? In the very first response in the forum and the reddit.

"Slings are highly skill intensive, more so than bows or crossbows."

So, no, in the real world, no human community had everyone carrying slings, because slings are the most difficult of the three weapons (slings, bows, crossbows) to learn how to use effectively.

From the article "Reports of estimated range of the sling varies in recent literature. This may stem from the inability of historians to find individuals who can properly demonstrate the sling. The bow, crossbow and firearm, if operated correctly, will produce the same effect the weapon had hundreds of years ago. However, the sling requires tremendous skill, and only people who have had extensive training can claim to match the ability of ancient slingers. Existing literature quotes ranges as little as 150m to as much as 500m (Demmin, 1964; Hogg, 1968; Korfmann, 1973; Wise, 1976; Connolly, 1981; Ferrill, 1985; Richardson, 1998b)."

OH! and look at this. What serendipity, from the same research paper

"Strabo, a Roman historian born in 64 B.C. commented on the famed Balearic slingers:
...their training in the use of slings used to be such, from childhood up, that [parents] would not so much as give bread to their children unless they first hit it with the sling.

Vegetius, Florus, and other classical writers confirm this Balearic tradition and their remarkable proficiency. The Bible also mentions another legendary group, the Benjamites, noting, “every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss.” (Judges 20.16)"

So, guess that according to our best sources, we have two human societies where are large number of people used slings. The Balearics and the Benjamites. So, historical research proving you wrong. That was a fun bit of learning.

I no more consider that than that I consider that dwarves mostly being miners means that there are no human miners in a D&D setting. Races in D&D take archetypal things about different subgroups of humans (because humans are the only sapient species we have to base things on and everyone is playing a human) and turn them up to 11.

And yet the idea that a human community would band together in mutual defense instead of relying solely on the militia, is met with scorn, because they have a hierarchical society.

If they are all in their own homes who would they need to defend that's outside their homes?

The people in the homes being broken into. Guess that community spirit doesn't apply to saving your neighbors.

Based around long term halfling lore and that changes no game rules at all.

Lore that was written out of the game. And I guess you've abandoned you "give all halflings sharpshooter with the sling" position, unless you think that isn't changing game rules.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The other side does not need to be convinced; they've already rationalized it, in multiple ways. They are indulging you in engaging with the silly exercise on your terms.

Because it is silly, the DM is going to decide who wins and who loses, and then they'll decide what factors led to that victory or defeat, and they do that with absolute authority over those factors.

The most you can hope to accomplish with this exercise is agreeing upon a result under one particular set of assumptions which you'd have to agree upon with the other posters. And assuming you could get there, all you'd wind up with is a result that is entirely irrelevant to the broader game by virtue of the level of specificity required to achieve it.

So, I'm ridiculous for engaging in a discussion about game mechanics in how the fight would go down.

But the guy who gave all halflings proficiency, all halflings a feat, made up new terrain features, insisted all of the halfling doors are reinfoced, that there is nothing burnable in a halfling home, and on and on and on has "rationalized" their position and is just indulging me.

My contributions have been "Gnolls who can see at night would attack at night", "Gnolls who have bows would use bows", "Gnolls are noted to use fire arrows, so using fire is reasonable" and that's it. I've added nothing to the gnoll capabilities.

 

[Gnarlo]

Pretty much sums up the thread. It’s even from the Little Criminals album, how psychic was this man?

 

[Chaosmancer]

You previously stated that halflings were freeloaders that contributed nothing. You're making up this notion that halfling will all be draft dodgers, something no one and no lore has ever stated. Nor have they ever stated that all humans are subject to conscription. Almost as if throughout history many countries primarily used mercenaries to fight their wars. Wonder where they got the money.

But I'm sure you'll just twist this around like how I think it's dumb that you arguing that they must use crossbows to be effective.

I never stated halflings were freeloaders who contributed nothing.

It is stated that the humans are defending the halflings, if halflings were fighting alongside the humans, why would they state that? So, if the haflings aren't fighting beside the humans... where are they?

Now a local patrol and militia are mercenaries hired for the job. Dang, I wonder how that changed all of a sudden.