My problem with grenades and big explosions ...

[Aaron2]

As it is now, grenades do 4d6 point of damage with a burst radius and a Reflex save (DC 15) for 1/2 damage. This is fine for normal games, but I’m running a military game where grenades are the smallest explosive around.

Here’s my problem. Once damage reaches 6d6, it kills first level characters regardless of whether they make their saves or not (half damage is still over 10 hps). Outside of the burst area is perfectly safe while inside is instant death. What I want is to create a zone around where it is possible to be killed but also possible to escape unharmed; this is an attempt to simulate fragments flying about. So, first off, I was thinking of having a part of the explosion damage represent fragmentation. Instead of a Burst Radius, the attack will have a Burst Range Increment and the Reflex* DC will drop by 2 for every increment past the first. This should be around 2d6 or 3d6 of damage; save for no damage (i.e. didn’t get hit).

The second aspect of the explosion, the concussion force, is a bit more difficult. I would prefer that except for massive explosion, this be an unavoidable but small amount of damage (say 1-2d6) but have a stunning kinda take-your-breath-away type of effect. I’m not sure what to do. Maybe a Fort save vs stun.

Overall I’d like to do this with the minimal amount of rolling per blast but keep these same effects. Any ideas? Any other d20 games do explosions differently?


Aaron

*Instead of a Reflex save, it should probably be a built in attack bonus like dart traps.

 

[Vigilance]

The easiest way would be to give the blast "damage increments".

At each increment the blast would lose the highest die of damage. So if you rolled 6d6 and got a 6,5,4,3,2 and 1 with a damage radius of 20 ft. the damage would be 21 at 0-20 ft, 15 at 21-40 ft, 11 at 41-60 ft and so forth.

I think this would be simple to implement and wouldn't require any added statistics other than the damage radius. It would also require no extra dice rolling.

Chuck

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

You realize of course, that anything within an explosion is usually killed, right? That's why we used grenades, to kill people who were even near them. Artillery and mortar shells are even more deadlier.

Beyond Chuck's advice of using incrementally staged down damage, I can't really think of any other advice than not mortaring or using fire for effect on your PC's, since I don't understand why you are lowering the effectiveness of something that is very dead IRL.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the use of "explosion increments" has its appeal, I recommend trying it. (I would probably use a slightly altered method than proposed above:
Every "burst increment" (in case of ordinary grenades, 5 feet) reduces the damage by 1 die.)
A further possibility is: Roll seperately for each character. This increases the chance that at least one of them is not autoamtically killed, because you will low roll. Unfortunately, it slows down combat.
If you use standard grenades, the danger is a bit reduced: 4d6 points of damage deal 14 points on average, 7 on a succesful save. Some characters may still stand after this, and at least they won`t be instantly dead, just in the negative hp.

But ultimately, 1st level characters are not supposed to go against multiple grenade throwing enemies. They are still normal persons like you and me, and are the kind of people that don`t dodge a grenade explosion (regardless if they have an elite array of stats or not). They simply die in it..
If you are familiar with D&D, the closest thing to a grenade is a fireball, requiring a 5th level wizard or higher. This means a challenging "50:50 chance of failure" encounter for 1st level heros. Some - even all - could die.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Aaron2]

You realize of course, that anything within an explosion is usually killed, right? That's why we used grenades, to kill people who were even near them. Artillery and mortar shells are even more deadlier.

The question is really how big is the explosion. I was reading Band of Brothers and, during the attack on Brecourt (sp) Manor, Joe Toye had a grenade blow up right between his legs and he was mostly unharmed. Two other grenades blew up nearby and, again, he was ok. In other first hand account I've seen this scene many times: guy runs up to bunker and tosses grenade in through slit, the grenades explode and then the occupants of the bunker come stumbling out the door in a daze surrendering. I've heard there was a problem with the German stick grenade in that the stick acted to direct the blast so, depending on which way the stick landed, you could be very close and end up ok.

I guess I need more information on exactly how big the lethal area of a blast is. I'm not sure where to find that.


I thought about using something similar to the "damage increments". That's how Hero System works.


Finally, the fireball anology doesn't quite hold since every character, regardless of level, carries around two or three grenades. They are just too common to be hyper-effective.


Aaron

 

[swrushing]

Here’s my problem. Once damage reaches 6d6, it kills first level characters regardless of whether they make their saves or not (half damage is still over 10 hps). Outside of the burst area is perfectly safe while inside is instant death.

Maybe... start characters at 3rd level?

Second option...

1. drop grenade damage down to something like a shotgun over the area, drop the reflex save entirely. if you are in the radius, you take damage equal to a shotgun. These are for the survivors of the blast. Let evasion guys get a save for half.

2. Add in an automatic MDS required for those in the explosion area. This is not dependent on CON score, but simply there to say "the explosion is deadly, very deadly, and anyone has a chance of getting killed. (reserve GM discretion for saying "dragons are not at risk of instant death from hand grenade" and a few other reasonable jusgements.) If you wanted to get funky, you could try making the MDS save for explosions a reflex save istead of a fort save for guys with evasion.

 

[swrushing]

I thought about using something similar to the "damage increments". That's how Hero System works.
Aaron

stargate d20 uses the following iirc...

every explosion has a range increment. full damage is scored in the first increment, then it halves (round down) for each additional increment until it reaches 0. grenades were 5' increments iirc.

iirc you can get a reflex save for half if you only if you "hit the deck". That will leave you prone but give you the ref save for half.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Well, honestly, grenades are weird things. I've seen them blow up next to someone, and that person only get the wind knocked out of him, while the man twenty feet away took a little chunk of steel in the chest that killed him.

A lot of what you are reading, are not modern grenades anyway. The lethality of grenades was markedly increased after studies down on effectiveness during the Vietnam War showed that grenades were not doing that much in the way of effectiveness.

The way there were designed, from core explosive to wrapping was redone, and todays grenades are actually more lethal. Many countries use a "bursting charge" that blows the grooved case into fragments, and the interior is tightly wound wire that is notched, so it too becomes fragmented.

Bad mojo there.

A reflex save is about all they should get, if it kills them, well, I hate to say it, but that's the fortunes of war. Grenades are very dangerous, and by lowering the effectiveness of them, as well as the availablity, they lose thier fear.

I still have several questions...

You state: Everyone is carrying several grenades. What type of game are you playing?
What about range? At 50 feet, a grenade is a chancy thing at best. Throwing one in an enclosed area, nowdays, and what is in there is shredded meat and guys who wish they were dead, not stunned people coming out with thier hands up.

Read up on more modern battles, Desert Storm, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Somolia, Kenya, Rwanda, Iraqi Freedom, check on the lethality of grenades in those theaters.

Don't forget, also, to take into account the difference between what the VC were chucking at troops, and what the modern "baseball" packs. Time degrades explosive, and a lot of those grenades were old, or shoddily made, but still killed people.

Stick with the reflex and listed damage. Personally, I thought it was way too low. I've seen 40mm HE fired from an M-203 rifle mounted grenade launcher totally destroy a car, but according to the d20 rules, can't happen. They did that to eliminate "instant lethality" with grenades.

And a first hand account? Grenades make shredded meat out of people. Most don't die immediately, but hey, they were too busy dying to worry about what was going on around them.

 

[Aaron2]

You state: Everyone is carrying several grenades. What type of game are you playing?

I should have stated that I'm running a WW2 game so I actually want to emulate the lesser effectiveness of that era. Esp. the germans whose grenade had pretty poor fragmentation but could upgrade them with a splittering (sp).

I'm also concerned about bazookas. I need a way to make them only marginally effective against troops unless fired at something like a wall which will blast into the room behind it. And tree bursts too.


Aaron

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I should have stated that I'm running a WW2 game so I actually want to emulate the lesser effectiveness of that era. Esp. the germans whose grenade had pretty poor fragmentation but could upgrade them with a splittering (sp).

Ahhh, that explains your concerns.

Half the damage. Honestly. The grenades of the time were filled with what is called "Low Explosive" nowdays. Usually Composition B-2 or even gunpowder. Honestly, with the exception of things ike the .50 Cal GPHMG, I'd drop the damage die down too. Once again, cordite manufacturing was different.

I'm also concerned about bazookas. I need a way to make them only marginally effective against troops unless fired at something like a wall which will blast into the room behind it. And tree bursts too.


Aaron

That's easy. Number one is something that the books ignore, called "Stand Off Distance"....
Some types of rounds do not explode for either a set number of rotations, a time period, or a set number of times the propellor spins (Watch Pearl Harbor. See that part where the rotor stops spinning and the bomb goes off? That was a common fuse type in WW-II)
Number two, it's doubtful that it would go off against a troop (Oh, it would KILL him, but probably wouldn't detonate). If someone is hit by a bazooka, apply to damage to HIM, not to everyone. Bazooka's are not a radius weapon, but instead, a crude EFP (Explosively Forged Penetrator) round desinged to blow through tank armor in a small hole.

Just drop the damage.

.-)

Hope that helps.