My Response to the Grognardia Essay "More Than a Feeling"

[Ariosto]

Are we really unable to say that Tunnels & Trolls is a more old school system than My Life With Master?

The distinction seems quite evident to me -- and quite irrelevant to (as I see it) the imponderable question of which is "better".

 

[outsider]

To me, an old school game is one where the players cede much of the narrative and mechanical control of the game to the DM.

This is also what I think of when I think of oldschool D&D. Much of the game, in my experience, boiled down to convincing your dm to let you do things. This may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how closely your opinion on what you should be able to do matched your dm's opinion on what you should be able to do. For various reasons(everything from differing logic, to superior knowledge on the player or dm side, to percieved coolness), I found it to be a pretty bad thing overall. No doubt the players still playing in an old school fashion have had better experiences with it, and thus consider it to be a good thing. As noted, it's highly subjective.

 

[Ariosto]

If old school simply equals OD&D, why not just call it OD&D?

That is quite sensible. And the sensible answer is that it is not a simple equation with OD&D (which in my experience but lately -- and perhaps but temporarily -- attained some visibility after 30 years or so of utter obscurity). It is not even limited to D&D, although the parochialism of that subcultural "gorilla" rears its head from time to time -- which is really "the same as it ever was".

 

[Mark]

This is also what I think of when I think of oldschool D&D. Much of the game, in my experience, boiled down to convincing your dm to let you do things.

That's not the game, that's the DM.

 

[fanboy2000]

There are a couple of things I find interesting about his post:

1. That he's arguing for an objective definition of "old school." Prior to this, I only heard the phrase used for a wide variety of nostalgia. Like when people say they watched some old school Transformers or old school Star Wars. That someone would want to argue that old school gaming isn't nostalgia seems at odds with the way old school is used in other contexts.

2. The last thing James Maliszewski says is "Otherwise, we really are just a bunch of middle-aged guys clinging to the past." There is nothing wrong with being a middle-aged guy clinging to the past. If you like a game, you like a game. If you like a group of games, you like a group of games. Stand-up and be counted. It's ok to just like something, there's no need to go off and try to make it sound all scientific.

One day, in the not to distant future, I'm going to be a middle-aged guy clinging to the past. I will wear my preferences proud.

 

[outsider]

That's not the game, that's the DM.

How do you figure that? The game explicitly told you to consult the DM when the rules don't cover something. Given the "rules light"(compared to modern D&D) nature of earlier versions of D&D, you were going to be consulting the DM alot, which basically amounts to asking him for permission to do anything not covered by the rules.

Some said yes alot. Some said no alot. Some knew more about how the action in question works in real life than the players did. Some thought they knew more than the players did, and in reality, didn't. Some left it up to the dice. Some based it on what would be better for the story. Some viewed the players as the enemy. Some were carebears. Some played favorites. Some would make one ruling one week, then promptly forget about it the next time a similar situation came up. Some were extremely consistent with their rulings. Some decided based on how cool the action in question was. Some decided immediately. Some debated every action.

Some of the dms descirbed above were good, others were bad. That doesn't change the fact that the way the game operated was that if it wasn't covered by the rules, the DM decides whether you can do it or not. It was the way the game worked, and is the way the game still works(though with the large amount of mechanics added over the years, you have to play "ask the DM" alot less than you used to).

Some players would rather have a person telling them what they can and can't do. Others would rather have rules telling them what they can and can't do. This is one of the primary divides between newschool and oldschool D&D.

 

[Hairfoot]

Prior to this, I only heard the phrase used for a wide variety of nostalgia. Like when people say they watched some old school Transformers or old school Star Wars.

Which suggests that it was introduced as a term of derision. I prefer "classic".

Comparison with old cartoons isn't very apt, because a lot of them were objectively bad. The old/new school debate in D&D is more akin to glam rockers and folkies arguing the merits of electric/acoustic guitars.

 

[Ariosto]

Why do self-proclaimed Old Schoolers feel the need to ghettoize themselves?

It seems to me rather that their coming out of the ghetto has occasioned this contretemps. It's not as if they had been playing with everyone else for the past 20 years and suddenly retreated into some seclusion!

Their "renaissance" seems characterized by works of reaching out such as the "retro clones" facilitated by the OGL; participation in the RPGs at libraries events; a "paint and play" program (in partnership with Reaper Miniatures) in at least one Hobbytown USA; publication of modules and magazines; contests with prizes for artists and scenario designers (with, if memory serves, some special reservation for 4E-derived entries in the recent "edition independent" One Page Dungeon lists); and so on.

 

[jdrakeh]

That doesn't change the fact that the way the game operated was that if it wasn't covered by the rules, the DM decides whether you can do it or not.

That's how pretty much all roleplaying games with a GM/DM work, new and old alike, from OD&D (1974) to D&D 4e. Any claim that only older games afford the GM/DM authority to implement judgement is a claim quickly disproven by reading pretty much any traditional RPG published within the last year or so (Story Games and other self-proclaimed departures from the norm obviously don't qualify as traditional).

 

[outsider]

That's how pretty much all roleplaying games with a GM/DM work, new and old alike, from OD&D (1974) to D&D 4e. Any claim that only older games afford the GM/DM authority to implement judgement is a claim quickly disproven by reading pretty much any traditional RPG published within the last year or so (Story Games and other self-proclaimed departures from the norm obviously don't qualify as traditional).

Yes, that's accurate, as I mentioned. However, the presence of more rules allows the players to do more things without having to convince the DM to let them do it.