My Response to the Grognardia Essay "More Than a Feeling"

[Ariosto]

The old/new school debate in D&D is more akin to glam rockers and folkies arguing the merits of electric/acoustic guitars.

Electric Warrior, baby -- but Steve Peregrine Took not only beat the bongos better than Mickey Finn, he was way better at backing Marc's vocals with his own; and I think he contributed some of the trippier lyrics. (Opinion, YMMV, etc.)

 

[Hairfoot]

Any claim that only older games afford the GM/DM authority to implement judgement is a claim quickly disproven by reading pretty much any traditional RPG published within the last year or so.

Or reading the ever-present threads on any RPG discussion board concerning GM unfairness and bias.

 

[fanboy2000]

Which suggests that it was introduced as a term of derision.

Maybe it was. Often, I hear it used by people engaging in the old school activity, i.e. "I was watching old school Godzilla yesterday and Mothera rocks!" So, I don't attribute the phrase any pejorative meaning. That doesn't others don't, however.

I prefer "classic".

Which is also a classier word.

Comparison with old cartoons isn't very apt, because a lot of them were objectively bad. The old/new school debate in D&D is more akin to glam rockers and folkies arguing the merits of electric/acoustic guitars.

I prefer vi versus emacs analogy myself.

 

[Obryn]

Or reading the ever-present threads on any RPG discussion board concerning GM unfairness and bias.

So you're arguing that messageboard posts from one player are a true and honest reflection of the games played by all players? Rather than a reflection of themselves and their group's dynamics?

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I'm going to need the underlying logic here.

-O

 

[outsider]

Or reading the ever-present threads on any RPG discussion board concerning GM unfairness and bias.

There's more to it than unfairness and bias. Some people just find themselves in games where they and the DM don't agree on what they should be capable of. That doesn't neccessarily mean the DM is bad(or that the player is bad). They just have different expectations. Rules can help to solve this problem.

 

[Ariosto]

Yes, that's accurate, as I mentioned. However, the presence of more rules allows the players to do more things without having to convince the DM to let them do it.

That depends upon the tenor of the rules and the participants' relationship with them (and with each other).

 

[Hairfoot]

Electric Warrior, baby -- but Steve Peregrine Took not only beat the bongos better than Mickey Finn, he was way better at backing Marc's vocals with his own; and I think he contributed some of the trippier lyrics. (Opinion, YMMV, etc.)

How many bluegrassians does it take to change a lightbulb?

10: one to change the bulb, three to sing about the old one, and six to walk out in disgust because it's electric.

[/off-topic]

 

[jdrakeh]

Yes, that's accurate, as I mentioned. However, the presence of more rules allows the players to do more things without having to convince the DM to let them do it.

I think that's largely an illusion that has been fostered by modern game design. IME, at the end of the day, if you want your character to do X, the GM/DM still has the final say on whether or not X is appropriate and, therefore, if your character can attempt it.

That is, volume of rules doesn't speak to the nature of individual action or, if you prefer, just because a game contains rules for X doesn't mean that X will happen during actual play.

 

[Hairfoot]

So you're arguing that messageboard posts from one player are a true and honest reflection of the games played by all players? Rather than a reflection of themselves and their group's dynamics?

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I'm going to need the underlying logic here.

-O

Nope. You invented that argument without any help from me, so you'll have to provide your own underlying logic.

I pointed out that players still complain about GM fiat and unfairness, despite the abundance of rules.

And where did you get "one player" from? Are you suggesting that all complaints about GMs are posted by the one guy, all over the internet, every day, for years? If so, that must be the most successful troll in history!

 

[Hairfoot]

I think that's largely an illusion that has been fostered by modern game design. IME, at the end of the day, if you want your character to do X, the GM/DM still has the final say on whether or not X is appropriate and, therefore, if your character can attempt it.

I agree. I've played in many groups as an adult, and I've never seen a player need to produce a rule to convince the GM to at least let the PC attempt something.

That sort of "no, you just can't" attitude is something I associate with the personality politics of high-school, reinforcing the theory that retro-gaming is gaining popularity because official Dungeons & Dragons is now designed solely for adolescents.