D&D 5E My Review of Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes is Live will also answer any questions

[gyor]

Eh, that would work with someone like Volo, but archmages have a lot of credibility in D&D. Especially Mordenkainen, who is completely neutral and has no favorite horses in this race.

People can be highly educated and brilliant and still have stuff wrong, misinterrupt stuff, and be influenced by their own emotions and biases.

 

[gyor]

After a more through reading not much changes for old elf lore lovers, I assume.







Unless I am grossly misreading it, all good elves go to heaven for some time, then get reborn. Drow and heathen elves never get to go to elf heaven, and their souls just go where souls go. You can resurrect everyone just fine, people can go to elf heaven, but then get pulled out.

Thank you so much. Why did those podcasters think Drow not going thru Transcendence meant their souls died, the Dark Seldarine don't have their afterlives in Arvandor, they have them in places like the Demonweb Pits.

This is the weakness of getting intel second hand.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I did not know they would reprint the demonlords, was only expecting the archdevils. What's their CRs?

We get 6 Archdevils in this book

Bael Duke serving Mamon at CR 19
Geryon fallen archduke at CR 22
Hutijin Duke serving Mephistopheles at CR 21
Moloch exiled archduke at CR 21
Titivilus clever but weak duke serving Dispater at CR 16
Zariel Fallen Angel and Archduchess of Avernus at CR 26

 

[gyor]

And in other interesting news, Baalzebul is now out of slug form again. Apparently he was punished in that form by Asmodeus for one year for every lie he had told a devil, and just worked off the punishment. And, if he lies to a devil again, he gets punished with that form for a year, so he's basically being forced into telling the truth (except to mortals; he can lie all he wants to them).

That's cool and interesting twist, but what does he look like now?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

That's cool and interesting twist, but what does he look like now?

I assume like he used to. A fly faced humanoid.

 

[Mirtek]

We get 6 Archdevils in this book

Bael Duke serving Mamon at CR 19
Geryon fallen archduke at CR 22
Hutijin Duke serving Mephistopheles at CR 21
Moloch exiled archduke at CR 21
Titivilus clever but weak duke serving Dispater at CR 16
Zariel Fallen Angel and Archduchess of Avernus at CR 26

CR26 already for the lord of the first? That certainly starts higher than i would have expected

 

[Irennan]

OK, it's available from D&D Beyond now. And, as I suspected, it's nowhere bad as it has been made out. Elves who have pleased the Seldarine upon death experience Transcendence - their souls go to Arvandor for an indeterminate time, and then are eventually reincarnated. Conversely, to directly quote from the book:

"Elves who die of old age without experiencing Transcendence are believed to have been denied admission to Arvandor, and thus their souls pass on to other planes and are never reincarnated. The living are left to guess why this might be true, but an elf’s conduct during life often offers a clue. Drow never experience Transcendence, for example, and the same is true for elves who turn to the worship of gods other than the Seldarine."

So elves and drow who do not experience Transcendence have their souls go to other planes, permanently as they are not reincarnated, BUT the souls are not extinguished entirely.

Ah, thank you. Thatis much, much better (and pretty much the old lore).

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Eh, that would work with someone like Volo, but archmages have a lot of credibility in D&D. Especially Mordenkainen, who is completely neutral and has no favorite horses in this race.

I believe the term you were looking for was "true neutral", not completely neutral, and true neutral means he does have a favorite horse (although the favorite horse will probably change as the race goes on). If he decided that balance was served by telling everyone drow don't go the Abyss, he would. Sorry, he is way more unreliable than Volo, who just occasionally mistaken. Mordenainen is a balance fanatic who lies when it serves his cause.

 

[gyor]

After a more through reading not much changes for old elf lore lovers, I assume.







Unless I am grossly misreading it, all good elves go to heaven for some time, then get reborn. Drow and heathen elves never get to go to elf heaven, and their souls just go where souls go. You can resurrect everyone just fine, people can go to elf heaven, but then get pulled out.

I think because not all Drow worship Gods so they might go elsewhere. So yeah I take it that the Drow go to their God if they have one, or if they don't to a setting fitting location.

 

[gyor]

I assume like he used to. A fly faced humanoid.

View attachment 97677

I thought he used to be beautiful in some of the editions, I mean preslug form. I mean fly face is not a step up from slug form in the looks department.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I thought he used to be beautiful in some of the editions, I mean preslug form. I mean fly face is not a step up from slug form in the looks department.

It was a big part of his lore in 4e: he was a beautiful angel with a propensity for architectural design (surprisingly important fact) who was unhappy with all the gods were not doing to fight the elemental chaos (to be honest a pretty fair assessment); Asmodeus was the exception (short-lived Blood War did occur), but when Assy let the BW wind down, BZB rebelled and temporarily took over the 9 Hells; but when Assy took over again, he turned BZB into a giant maggot, and although he still ruled his section of Hell, it was cursed with rot and decay, which meant all his architectural creations all falling down as fast as his damned minions can build them again. It was intimated that he is now quite insane (but that hasn't interfered with his duties).

I have no idea how much of that made it into 5e (or MToF).

 

[Kendra Lawrence]

Given that the default is for a soul to go to its god's realm after death, the default would be what happens unless specifically stated to be otherwise (as with Transcendence). Since it's not specifically stated otherwise, then one must assume that elven souls that do not undergo Transcedence follow the default process - they go to the realms of their gods. To "pass on to other planes" is just another way of stating this, albeit in slightly more poetic terms. I guess you could parse the wording otherwise, but it does seem to be rather pedantic...

It sounds like they are being intentional vague in order to avoid talking about it, especially in regards to the drow.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I thought he used to be beautiful in some of the editions, I mean preslug form. I mean fly face is not a step up from slug form in the looks department.

Basically, he was beautiful in his original angelic form, turned into a fly-headed devil after he fell and became an Archduke of Hell, turned into a slug-like creature later after pushing Asmodeus too far, and now has been turned back into a former humanoid form. Oddly, MToF doesn't state whether which previous humanoid form, although, given that the book references 1e material quite heavily, it would be, presumably, the classic 1e fly-headed form...

 

[MonsterEnvy]

It was a big part of his lore in 4e: he was a beautiful angel with a propensity for architectural design (surprisingly important fact) who was unhappy with all the gods were not doing to fight the elemental chaos (to be honest a pretty fair assessment); Asmodeus was the exception (short-lived Blood War did occur), but when Assy let the BW wind down, BZB rebelled and temporarily took over the 9 Hells; but when Assy took over again, he turned BZB into a giant maggot, and although he still ruled his section of Hell, it was cursed with rot and decay, which meant all his architectural creations all falling down as fast as his damned minions can build them again. It was intimated that he is now quite insane (but that hasn't interfered with his duties).

I have no idea how much of that made it into 5e (or MToF).

Thats similar to his pre 4e Lore.

In 2e and 3e. He was an Archon who who fell to the Hells due to his narcissism and perfectionism. His power, intelligence and ambition impressed Asmodeus who appointed him ruler of 7th Layer. Baalzebul eventually gained enough influence to take control of the 6th Layer as well controlling it through his Vassal Moloch. However he lost control after Moloch's exile. And being turned into his slug like form.

Baalzebul enjoys architectural design, but his perfectionism grew worse after coming to Hell. He would have his minions raise palaces, fortresses, cities and neumerous other things. However his perfectionism resulted in him abandoning a project as soon as flaws showed up in the work. As a result Maladomini is covered in ruins and half finished works that Baalzebul abandoned. One example of this was when he was creating his perfect city so far the only one that had met his standards. However when he went to the Throne Room he found a slight imperfection and so ordered that his court and citizens leave and abandon the place. His normally submissive consort Baftis refused on the grounds that it was good enough and would rather live here then in filth, while waiting for another project not to meet his standards. Baalzebul then cursed and sealed Baftis in the city as punishment for questioning him, and she is currently the only inhabitant of that ghost town.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Eh, that would work with someone like Volo, but archmages have a lot of credibility in D&D. Especially Mordenkainen, who is completely neutral and has no favorite horses in this race.

Well... Let's see what Mordenkainen himself says about the trustworthiness of archmages, in a sidebar on page 58:

"I have heard tales of drow who have forsaken the evil ways of their kind. I give these stories no credit, though Elminster himself swears they have validity. Never trust a drow, or the word of an archmage."

 

[Irennan]

Well... Let's see what Mordenkainen himself says about the trustworthiness of archmages, in a sidebar on page 58:

"I have heard tales of drow who have forsaken the evil ways of their kind. I give these stories no credit, though Elminster himself swears they have validity. Never trust a drow, or the word of an archmage."

I see. That's a weird passage to put in, tho, since supposedly the book is written by him as a study on the conflicts of the Multiverse, and he writes a whole section about Eilistraee and mentions Drizzt, despite not believing that they exist, and admitting it in the same book? I mean, I know that those notes are there for fun, but at least make them consistent.

 

[SkidAce]

Mordenainen is a balance fanatic who lies when it serves his cause.

Believing in balance doesnt make anyone a liar.

They could be entirely truthful and still work to balance things out.

 

[cbwjm]

I see. That's a weird passage to put in, tho, since supposedly the book is written by him as a study on the conflicts of the Multiverse, and he writes a whole section about Eilistraee and mentions Drizzt, despite not believing that they exist, and admitting it in the same book? I mean, I know that those notes are there for fun, but at least make them consistent.

Those might be the tales he heard from Elminster. He could be going, "This is what a friend has told me but don't put too much stock in it."

 

[Irennan]

Those might be the tales he heard from Elminster. He could be going, "This is what a friend has told me but don't put too much stock in it."

Maybe, since both Eilistraee and Drizzt are limited to Toril.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

So, the book discusses elves, dwarves, gnomes, gith, and hundred of monsters. But does it discuss humans? I mean, so little has been established about them...