My "Savage" Experience

Just one more design note, while I'm thinking of it --- armor is a big, big deal in modern and sci-fi settings in Savage Worlds. Which is obviously a function of the fact that, unlike D&D, your target number to get hit by ranged attacks never goes above 4, ever, barring application of a few specific edges.

Which is why armor, cover, all of the various ranged attack adjustments (RoF, suppressive fire, Double Tap, full auto, etc.) have to be taken into account during ranged combat. Which goes hand in hand with the comment above about "using the whole rulebook."
 

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Just one more design note, while I'm thinking of it --- armor is a big, big deal in modern and sci-fi settings in Savage Worlds. Which is obviously a function of the fact that, unlike D&D, your target number to get hit by ranged attacks never goes above 4, ever, barring application of a few specific edges.

Cover. Cover is your friend in a lot of modern-combat centric games, and that version of SW is no different.

Which is why armor, cover, all of the various ranged attack adjustments (RoF, suppressive fire, Double Tap, full auto, etc.) have to be taken into account during ranged combat. Which goes hand in hand with the comment above about "using the whole rulebook."

Yeah. There are a lot of things you can do about most armor in a modern game, but just banging away isn't usually the best (though between raises and open-ended damage rolls, it can still occasionally work).
 

I've experienced this phenomenon in SW games on two occasions, one as the GM and once as the player. Poor luck and poor player synergy can lead to the problem, but after I encountered it as a GM I shied away from the system for a while (we're talking all the way back to original 1E SW days). I eventually came back to it, and settled on some simple rules of thumb to keep things moving. The first one was: keep my players informed; I know the rules pretty well, and I remind them (or provide useful cards for reference) on their many options. If they aren't taking advantage of a certain course of action, I point it out....sometimes the players are just not great at thinking of these things, especially if they're used to more "static" games like D&D where tactical synergies aren't as common or necessary. The second rule of thumb is far more important: if I notice a toughness value or some other stat I have control of is getting in the way, I drop it a point or two. I don't share this stuff with the players, I just recognize that I have overbalanced the game, or am using a stat block that is weighted against the group as they are functioning, and I do an on-the-fly fix. I know some players might not like that, but usually when the group is having this sort of trouble, it is because "that type of player" is not in the group in the first place (if they were, they would be advising their cohorts of better tactics, usually!)

As a side note to the OP: you mention they were at best getting shaken conditions on the extras. Were they then failing to get a second shaken condition? Two shaken conditions in a row turn into a wound, eliminating the extra.

Ultimately though I usually have the opposite problem in SW (fantasy, at least), in which the players manage to wipe out the opposition with overwhelming firepower and coordination. It's a sight to behold when they clear a room of two dozen foes in three rounds and 20 minutes, and realize that would have been a 4 hour session in 5E!
 

As a side note to the OP: you mention they were at best getting shaken conditions on the extras. Were they then failing to get a second shaken condition? Two shaken conditions in a row turn into a wound, eliminating the extra.
Essentially, yes, they were failing to get two shaken conditions in a row. They would either miss with the follow-up attack or not deal enough damage to overcome Toughness a second time. Then the enemy would make their check to overcome Shaken (I didn't spend my Bennies to overcome Shaken).
 

We had the second session last night. Here were the highlights/low points (depending on your perspective):

  • "I still don't understand how the Wild Die works. Why can't I add it to my roll? Why do I get to roll my multiple damage dice? Okay, I'm never going to understand this - just tell me what I rolled." (This is from my most engaged player, btw.)
  • "How do I level up? Wait - I can increase an Attribute, but that doesn't improve the skill? Can I just get two Bennies instead of levelling up?"
  • All 6 Extras died before they took an action - which is fine except they were the same stats as the ones that really challenged the group last time. (I don't understand how challenges work in this system.)
 

We had the second session last night. Here were the highlights/low points (depending on your perspective):

  • "I still don't understand how the Wild Die works. Why can't I add it to my roll? Why do I get to roll my multiple damage dice? Okay, I'm never going to understand this - just tell me what I rolled." (This is from my most engaged player, btw.)
Honestly this just sounds like someone being obtuse.
  • "How do I level up? Wait - I can increase an Attribute, but that doesn't improve the skill? Can I just get two Bennies instead of levelling up?"
Ditto.
  • All 6 Extras died before they took an action - which is fine except they were the same stats as the ones that really challenged the group last time. (I don't understand how challenges work in this system.)
This sounds like a very bad initiative pull for the Extras.

Savage Worlds is swingy, by design. D&D gets its tension from dwindling resources and ablative hit points. SWADE gets its tension from the fact that even a mook can take you out with a lucky roll (if you also have no bennies and/or unlucky rolls). It is a fundamentally different kind of design, and therefore "challenge rating" isn't really an applicable concept. If you don't like that swinginess and uncertainty, SWADE is probably not for you.
 

We had the second session last night. Here were the highlights/low points (depending on your perspective):

  • "I still don't understand how the Wild Die works. Why can't I add it to my roll? Why do I get to roll my multiple damage dice? Okay, I'm never going to understand this - just tell me what I rolled." (This is from my most engaged player, btw.)

I'll tell the truth; someone who can engage successfully with games in the D&D sphere but has problems with these just boggles me. In particular, I'm not sure I'd even understand what the second question at all (and the first shouldn't be that confusing to anyone who can understand 5e Advantage).

  • "How do I level up? Wait - I can increase an Attribute, but that doesn't improve the skill? Can I just get two Bennies instead of levelling up?"

The first part of this I at least get, but its not like advancements only consist of Attributes. The attribute-skill two-step is different enough from most other games I at least get how it could confuse people.

  • All 6 Extras died before they took an action - which is fine except they were the same stats as the ones that really challenged the group last time. (I don't understand how challenges work in this system.)

Well, a swingy system--which SW absolutely is--with open ended die rolls is just going to do that sometimes.
 

Savage Worlds is swingy, by design. D&D gets its tension from dwindling resources and ablative hit points. SWADE gets its tension from the fact that even a mook can take you out with a lucky roll (if you also have no bennies and/or unlucky rolls). It is a fundamentally different kind of design, and therefore "challenge rating" isn't really an applicable concept. If you don't like that swinginess and uncertainty, SWADE is probably not for you.

There's some easy ways to get a rough idea from eyeing Defense, Toughness, and attack and damage dice, but its never going to be super reliable (of course that can be true in the D20 sphere too, just because D20's themselves have such swing).
 

I'll tell the truth; someone who can engage successfully with games in the D&D sphere but has problems with these just boggles me. In particular, I'm not sure I'd even understand what the second question at all (and the first shouldn't be that confusing to anyone who can understand 5e Advantage).
Yeah. It's a puzzle. She's done okay with Powered by the Apocalypse, D&D 5e and 4e, and Dragonbane. Savage Worlds just seems to be hitting a wall.
 

Yeah. It's a puzzle. She's done okay with Powered by the Apocalypse, D&D 5e and 4e, and Dragonbane. Savage Worlds just seems to be hitting a wall.

Well, sometimes that just happens. One of my long-time players (probably one of the smartest people I've ever known if not the smartest) who'd spent decades playing a variety of games of various degrees of difficulty just had a hell of a time with Fragged Empire; it puzzled and annoyed him as much as anyone else.
 

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