D&D 5E My vision of ability recharge

[The Crimson Binome]

Hope you are okay with nobody wanting to play a Wizard in your game. You've just nerfed them.

It's not so much that Wizards are actually nerfed, as much as that it will be perceived as a nerf. The actual strength of a long-rest-based class depends on how many encounters you face before you can take a long rest, so Wizards would be just as balanced as ever if you spread six encounters out over an entire adventure instead of over one day. Good luck convincing the players of that, though.

 

[Immoralkickass]

No idea where the gritty realism is coming from for this.

i never mentioned it once

Yeah, you didn't, but it looks like you either did not put much thought into this, or you just don't know how to get your point across. Because it looks like most people here don't get why do you should not get back all your abilities on a long rest. You did not state your reason, so we can only assume, since most people who suggest stuff like these think that the default long rest rules makes the game too easy, or too unrealistic.

And I'm not sure why you think that short rest classes get too little out of long rests, when they get to recharge all their abilities the same as long rest classes. Everyone loves a long rest after a whole day of fighting.

And why would you think that long rest classes don't like short rest? Healing with hit dice is a good way to recuperate, especially if your party don't have a healer.

You really didn't put much thought into this.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah, you didn't, but it looks like you either did not put much thought into this, or you just don't know how to get your point across. Because it looks like most people here don't get why do you should not get back all your abilities on a long rest.

And I'm not sure why you think that short rest classes get too little out of long rests, when they get to recharge all their abilities the same as long rest classes. Everyone loves a long rest after a whole day of fighting.

And why would you think that long rest classes don't like short rest? Healing with hit dice is a good way to recuperate, especially if your party don't have a healer.

You really didn't put much thought into this.

[MENTION=6864983]Immoralkickass[/MENTION]
You said, "You really didn't put much thought into this"
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Maybe I explained and no one bothered to read?

1. I explained the purpose of the full rest and why it was changed. It was changed explicitly so that a DM could have more narrative freedom in creating setbacks for pulling out and trying to full rest before going any further.

2. Yep, you really didn't bother to read. The point about short rest characters getting nothing out of a long rest was from a comparative perspective. For a short rest character, the option of a long rest doesn't do hardly anything that a short rest doesn't.

3. Again I never said they didn't like them. Maybe you should brush up on your reading. It's comparative. Long rest characters find very little value in a short rests compared to a long rest. That a short rest may allow them to recover some hit dice hp on a short rest doesn't change that statement, its just one example of where limited value can be found in short rests for long rest characters.

4. Or maybe you read and just didn't comprehend?

(FYI: I'm a firm believer in responding in like manner). You want a discussion then I'll discuss. You want to respond with silly personal attacks then I will do the same. You want to give half reasoned responses that attack some strawman you've invented, I'm not above doing that back to you either.

So do you want to acknowledge the basic points so we can have a discussion or do you want to continue down this unproductive and personal path?

The basic points I'm waiting on you to acknowledge are that short rest characters find little value in doing a long rest over a short rest and long rest characters find little value in doing a short rest. These aren't outlandish statements. They are trivial statements we shouldn't even have to spend time on.

 

[Immoralkickass]

@Immoralkickass
You said, "You really didn't put much thought into this"
----------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I explained and no one bothered to read?

1. I explained the purpose of the full rest and why it was changed. It was changed explicitly so that a DM could have more narrative freedom in creating setbacks for pulling out and trying to full rest before going any further.

2. Yep, you really didn't bother to read. The point about short rest characters getting nothing out of a long rest was from a comparative perspective. For a short rest character, the option of a long rest doesn't do hardly anything that a short rest doesn't.

3. Again I never said they didn't like them. Maybe you should brush up on your reading. It's comparative. Long rest characters find very little value in a short rests compared to a long rest. That a short rest may allow them to recover some hit dice hp on a short rest doesn't change that statement, its just one example of where limited value can be found in short rests for long rest characters.

4. Or maybe you read and just didn't comprehend?

(FYI: I'm a firm believer in responding in like manner). You want a discussion then I'll discuss. You want to respond with silly personal attacks then I will do the same. You want to give half reasoned responses that attack some strawman you've invented, I'm not above doing that back to you either.

So do you want to acknowledge the basic points so we can have a discussion or do you want to continue down this unproductive and personal path?

The basic points I'm waiting on you to acknowledge are that short rest characters find little value in doing a long rest over a short rest and long rest characters find little value in doing a short rest. These aren't outlandish statements. They are trivial statements we shouldn't even have to spend time on.

Oh so now you're taking offense when I don't mean any. Its not a personal attack. Maybe I was crude in my choice of words, but what I mean is, maybe you need to explain better, or give examples.

If it was just me that didn't see your point, you could say I'm probably stupid. But scroll up and see how many people did not agree with you, or did not see your point. Do we all have reading problems? Do we all lack basic comprehension skills?

You think long rest classes have no incentive to take short rests, when a typically long rest classes like Druid and Wizard have Natural/Arcane Recovery, Cleric has Channel Divinity, and so on.
And does a typically short rest class have no incentive to long rest? Take a look at Warlock. They plenty of abilities that only recharge on long rest, like Mystic Arcanum, Hurl Through hell, Dark Delirium, and a bunch of Invocations. And what if you take a feat like Lucky? So yeah, its not that simple, and that's what I mean by 'You really didn't put much thought into this'.

 

[FrogReaver]

Oh so now you're taking offense when I don't mean any. Its not a personal attack. Maybe I was crude in my choice of words, but what I mean is, maybe you need to explain better, or give examples.

If it was just me that didn't see your point, you could say I'm probably stupid. But scroll up and see how many people did not agree with you, or did not see your point. Do we all have reading problems? Do we all lack basic comprehension skills?

You think long rest classes have no incentive to take short rests, when a typically long rest classes like Druid and Wizard have Natural/Arcane Recovery, Cleric has Channel Divinity, and so on.
And does a typically short rest class have no incentive to long rest? Take a look at Warlock. They plenty of abilities that only recharge on long rest, like Mystic Arcanum, Hurl Through hell, Dark Delirium, and a bunch of Invocations. And what if you take a feat like Lucky? So yeah, its not that simple, and that's what I mean by 'You really didn't put much thought into this'.

AHA! Who is taking offense now.... jk

In all seriousness, if you did not mean offense then I am sorry I took it. Apparently everyone took this thread as discussing a gritty rest variant which probably falls mostly on me. I totally agree there.

Yes, short rest classes typically have very little reason to take a long rest over a short rest and long rest classes typically have very little reason to take a short rest over a long rest. Can you find a few examples that don't line up with that general statement? sure. Can you find a few examples of things that add a little more benefit to a short rest for a long rest character and vice versa? Sure. But ultimately they are drops in the ocean comparatively. Basically citing a handful of examples where a short rest character benefits a little more from a long rest than a short or where a long rest character benefits from a little more than hit die from a short rest doesn't change the general truth of what I'm saying. You do see the point I am making right?

 

[FrogReaver]

If I can make a suggestion, I think you're following the same logic that an out-of-game resource recovery balance needs to be tied to an in-game event. Yes, narratively that is the easiest. But it also introduces issues that time allowed can dictate gaming needs (and therefore the opposite - gaming needs may not dictate your narrative).

13th Age is a d20 OGL very similar to 5e in philosophy though it came out before it. They are closer to the 4e resource recovery of encounter and everything, but that's not a large stretch for 5e.

Encounter is obvious - one use per encounter. No need to worry about scheduling short rests or not between.

But the "recover all" is called a full-heal-up and happens every four combat encounters. (Though a DM can give ti quicker if they have been throwing particularly tough/draining encounters.) It is fully detached from an in-game event.

So a three week journey across a tundra with an encounter every handful of days might be a single full-heal-up. You don't have to worry like in 5e of trying to design an encounter where your full-rest-recovery folks can nova and that needs to balance your sword-swingers a-swinging.

On the other hand, half way through the day of a dungeon might be a full-heal-up, and another that evening.

Now, the DM has the freedom and responsibility to make this make sense in the narrative. It could be with a luxurious rest. Or drinking from the magic fountain they found in the dungeon. Or NOT during a insect-biting night in the jungle with lions coughing every once in a while in the near distance.

Oh, and the players can always take one early if they can justify it, but take a campaign setback in doing so. Maybe the villagers they are trying to rescue end up with turned into a vampire. Or the cultists have time to complete a ritual and summon the first of the demons. Or the big bad leaves and now they have to chase him once they figure that out. Whatever.

You are right that resource recovery doesn't have to be tied to an in game mechanism. However, if your table is fine detaching that connection then you have many more options for resource recovery than most of us

 

[Immoralkickass]

@FrogReaver - No I don't. I'll show you.

2. I think it's apparent why only some abilities are restored

No its not apparent. Why would you assume we know what you're referring to? If you're referencing something, put the link here.

But why chance? Let's start with an example. Let's say I wasn't basing the recharge on chance but instead I would restore 50% of my abilities rounded up each long rest.

So uh, restoring 50% of abilities is not based on chance? The word 'instead' would imply the opposite of chance, but you're stating the same thing. How do you even measure 50% of abilities for martial classes?

Recharging based on a chance eliminates this problem.

What problem? But if I'm unlucky, won't I recover little or next to nothing from a long rest? That is terrible.

 

[FrogReaver]

So if you're a 2nd level wizard, and cast all your spells then rest, you regain one spell?
So you choose which slots get recharged at higher levels or roll randomly?

This doesn't affect short rest classes like the warlock or the fighter.

The concept was to not guarantee anything gets recharged and to roll randomly to see if you regain the resource. In my vision short rest classes would roll randomly as well. All classes would roll at both short rests and long rests. How easy it is to regain things at a short or long rest may be tweaked somewhat by class if desired.

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver - No I don't. I'll show you.
No its not apparent. Why would you assume we know what you're referring to? If you're referencing something, put the link here.

So uh, restoring 50% of abilities is not based on chance?
What problem?

It's really not as hard to follow as you are making it.

1. My first principle was adding in a full rest. The very act of adding a full rest means other rests by definition will not fully restore you. Apparent and obvious are the words that come to my mind here. Maybe not?

2. You said: "So uh, restoring 50% of abilities is not based on chance?"
You quoted: "Let's say I wasn't basing the recharge on chance"

50% in the context you quoted was an amount not a chance. ('50% of the pie'). 50% in other context may be a probability.

So to more completely answer your question, the example you cited was an example to illustrate the problem with going by a fixed amount (like 50% abilities recovered each rest.).

To differentiate, one can have a method (like rolling 11 or higher on a d20) that will be random but on average will give back an amount of 50% of your abilities.

3. The problem where using a fixed amount like 50% will either give you all or nothing back depending on whether you round up or down.

 

[Immoralkickass]

This thread is my solution to fix everyone's issues they have with the current rest mechanics.

You have to start from here, because you speak for yourself. Not everyone have problems with the current rest mechanics.

I don't think what you suggest is necessary. Chance to regain abilities? So if I'm unlucky, I could rest for days and regain little, that would be terrible. Plus, how would you even measure '50% of abilities' for martial classes with a mix of short rest and long rest powers?