Mystara and outsiders

[pawsplay]

Does anyone know if Baatezu, Tanarii, and the like were ever situated into the Mystara setting?

Note: demons, in the Immortals set, are the Immortals of Entropy, and include demons inspired by some of the types of demons in AD&D. Not sure how this might have affected certain interpretations.

 

[Markn]

I can't say I ever remember them existing or even any references to them. That was a long time ago so its possible that they do but I would be they wouldn't.

I think there was also a 2e Monstrous Compendium for Mystara. Anyone who has that may have additional info for you on this topic.

 

[Shemeska]

Different game and different setting assumptions. D&D versus AD&D which is what Planescape and the Great Wheel (and associated settings) were a part of. So while it may have had some of them, their history, nature and origins weren't the same necessarily as those from Planescape.

I can only think of a few of references in Great Wheel material that referenced things from Mystara et al, and those seem to have been generally tips of the hat rather than attempts to merge any continuity [the blackballs in the ELH, and Ulgurshek the draeden, locked within/existing as the 92nd layer of the Abyss].

I want to say that there was a reference to a mystaran shadow elf in Faces of Sigil, but my books are packed up for my move later this week. Actually yes, Farrow was his name. And Mystara is referenced. But while mystara does get referenced, actual stuff from that setting carries a cosmology that's pretty mutually exclusive to the AD&D stuff.

 

[Dire Bare]

Different game and different setting assumptions. D&D versus AD&D which is what Planescape and the Great Wheel (and associated settings) were a part of. So while it may have had some of them, their history, nature and origins weren't the same necessarily as those from Planescape.

While the original Mystara products were for classic D&D ("BECMI") and did have different fluff assumptions, the setting was also "graduated" to AD&D 2nd Ed rules and was haphazardly merged into the AD&D meta-setting, including Planescape.

There are actually plenty of references within Planescape materials for Mystara. I've long since gotten rid of my books, but one of the supplements that listed out the gods/powers of various settings includes a listing for gods of Mystara, which were of course the Immortals translated into AD&D speak.

Also, there were a few meta-setting references in the AD&D Mystara material. The plane of Baator is mentioned in at least one product, and there were more if I remember correctly.

 

[Dire Bare]

Does anyone know if Baatezu, Tanarii, and the like were ever situated into the Mystara setting?

Note: demons, in the Immortals set, are the Immortals of Entropy, and include demons inspired by some of the types of demons in AD&D. Not sure how this might have affected certain interpretations.

The demons listed in the old classic D&D books are pretty much the same demons from AD&D, just with different names and stats for the different system. Baator was mentioned in a later AD&D Mystara product, but I don't remember the Baatezu themselves ever making an appearance.

Early Mystara products had a pretty strong Law vs Chaos vibe, with Law equating to Good and Chaos being equal to evil. I use the demons in my home campaign, but not the devils.

But the setting is pretty standard generic D&D, so introducing any elements of D&D is pretty easy without "messing up" the flavor.

 

[JustKim]

From Planescape's perspective, there are absolutely baatezu and tanar'ri in Mystara, they're simply called by different names.

From Mystara's perspective, no, there are no baatezu nor tanar'ri. There are fiends, which are servants of entropy. The outer plane that the fiends come from is called Pyts, which is described as a dark, bad place filled with poisonous gas, home to fiends and undead. This information comes from Wrath of the Immortals, where Mystara's planar workings and miscellany were collected near the end of the setting's life span. The entry on fiends also describes them as having little ambition beyond following the directions of entropic immortals.

 

[pawsplay]

That's pretty interesting. I originally though there wouldn't be any, but then I found some references to spinagons and gelugons and such on encounter tables for some regions on some Mystara-centric sites. The idea of a Plane of Baator is pretty interesting to me, since the classic cosmology I remember is Prime - Elemental (surrounded by the Ethereal) - Outside. The nastiest and weirdest things I knew of where the outside things that served the Outer Beings, and the creatures of the Nightmare Dimension (not evil, but anathemic to creatures of Prime).

 

[JohnBiles]

Orcus and Demogorgon exist in Mystara, but they are not a seperate class of being (Demon Lords) from the Gods; rather, they are all Immortals and simply belong to the Sphere of Entropy.

So, Hel (Norse Mythology), Orcus (D&D mythology), and Atzanteotl (Mystaran Aztec Evil Elf Immortal) are all Sphere of Entropy and might team up to meddle in the affairs of Odin (Norse Mythology), Kagyar (Mystaran Immortal of Dwarves, but not very different from Moradin of standard D&D Mythology), and Ixion (Immortal of the Sun, Mystaran Unique)

Also, Type I-VI demons are the six standard models for Entropic Titans, people who tried to achieve immortality in the Sphere of Entropy, failed, but were rewarded by becoming very powerful pseudo-immortals. They're a lot rarer and more potent than standard D&D Types I-VI.

 

[Dire Bare]

There are, in a sense, two Mystara cosmologies.

The original classic D&D cosmology (BECMI) that had demons but no devils, one angelic archon (rather than a whole bunch), but not much else in the way of outsiders.

I forget which year, but Mystara was given the AD&D 2nd Ed treatment, and as such was "graduated" into the AD&D cosmology with demons, devils, the Great Wheel and all that. So in AD&D material, both Planescape and Mystara, you'll find references to demons (as Tanar'ri), devils (as Baatezu) and more.

The AD&D references were far from exhausting and didn't mesh perfectly with what came before.

So when somebody says there are no devils in Mystara, or there are devils and demons but they are not known as Tanar'ri and Baatezu . . . . they are both right and wrong, depending on which version of the setting they are more familiar with.

If you are looking for the definitive canon answer, you'd have to go with the latest products published, which were the AD&D products. So, yes, the Tanar'ri and Baatezu exist in Mystara, and Mystara is a part of the Great Wheel cosmology and all that entails.

But if you are running your own campaign . . . . just go with whatever you like best!

 

[pawsplay]

I was musing on a Fantasy Craft game based on Mystara. One thing I noticed was that in BECMI, there are no demon summoning spells, and little in the way of what you would consider AD&D style demons. That led me to Google "mystara and baator" which produced some very peculier results, like encounter tables for other planets (Mytara's star system has planets you can visit???) that included baatezu (Mystara has baatezu???). After finding nothing illuminating on Mystara web sites about the topic, I thought I would just come here looking for answers.

[dramatic]And yet, I leave with more questions than when I began.[/dramatic]