Mystic soulknife questions

[zaratan]

I'm going to play one Monday in my play test group, which I've been experimenting with all the archtypes. I can't exactly base my experience off of what you call a combat day since everyone plays at different speeds and we get through what we get through. Since I mostly play in AL, I can't create a long term character. But from experience I can tell you that great weapon master is not for low level characters, and the majority of the people who take that feat at low levels are usually more of a liability in combat than an asset. You do 0 damage when you miss. At level 9, hitting AC 16 with a +14 to hit, you should be landing your strikes 90-95% of the time. You literally can only miss on a roll of 1. The reason you can't use lethal strike with your off hand is the same exact reason rogues can only use sneak attack 1 time per round, because it would be OVERPOWERED. Also it's irrelevant anyway since you can only use a certain number of psi points per round anyway.

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A fighter lvl 9 will get 20 of str and GWM, which means +4 if he don't have a magic weapon yet. Against AC 16 means avg 22.90 or 35.84 with advantage without any resources. A rage half orc barbarian str 18 GWM would be doing 35.53 against that AC 16 and
Fighter against AC 20 would do 13.11 or 23.12 with advantage, but he has precision strike to help a lot in that case. A 21.73 barbarian agaisnt AC 20 (24.73 wtihout -5/+10).

A Soul knife that maxed Dex (so with only int 16) for 7 pp (which he can do all day, but will not have much more pp left for the rest) could do against AC 20 would do 19.22 or 25.435 with advantage. But Against AC 16 the avg dmg is 24,525 and 27,55125 respectively. So the high chance to hit is only really usefull against high AC, which isn't the standard for most enemies. After lvl 9, soul knife only get +1d8/round of damage at will, the rest cost pp (which is ok, with that bigger pool).
Funny is, at lvl 11 (or before if target move), if you make a soul knife with booming blade, he'll do more damage than the off hand one and with his bonus action free for lethal strike or any other thing.
My problem with lethal strike (or any other mystic weapon damage increase) and mystic off hand attack is that he can't use at same turn, not "together".
A crossbow expert rogue or dual wielder can attack, bonus action attack and use sneak attack at same turn.

So, why the hell they planned to make soul knife a dual wielder if this really don't add much? Seriously that you can't agree that there is something wrong with the off hand attack for soul knife?

 

[neogod22]

Show me the math for these numbers you're putting out, because I don't understand what you're talking about or what you're taking in account. Also I don't see much of a difference in damage, and by your math, against AC 16, it looks like the fighter the majority of the time. So again, how are they underpowered?

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[neogod22]

The funny thing is, in your attempts to prove me wrong, you keep making my point for me. The Mystic out damages the fighter in normal circumstances. You have to add special conditions to beat it, which shows it's pretty well balanced.

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[neogod22]

I call on you math BTW. Let's do math everyone can follow along with and understand. At level 9. SK has +14 attack. And 2d8+10, 1d8+5 respectively. A GWM fighter has +4 attack, 1d12+15, 1d12+15 respectively. Against AC 16 SK has a 95% chance to hit per attack (2-20 on a d20), GWM has a 45% chance to hit (12-20). Chance to hit on both attacks is double the chance to miss (90% to hit for the SK, 22.5% for GWM) so, average damage for both attack equals (19+4.5 = 24.5, vs 2(20.5) = 41). Now you add the chance to over 10 attacks and average the damage. (24.5x9 = 220.5/10 = 22) (41x2 = 82/10 = 8.2). So the SK will average 22 vs the GWM 8 per round if we are only counting double hits as valid. Do you want to try for AC 20?

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[zaratan]

The calculator is in a link I putted before.
Soul knife need to burn 80% or his resource, so he don't get much more to do. And I didn't added none of fighter feature (manuevers, one trip attack and the rest is all with advantage, ripose is an extra attack with reaction, action surge and so) or optimized feat (polearm master)
And lvl 9 is the great spot of mystic, I can do the calculation for you at lvl 5 or lvl 11+
And again, soul knife can't have magic weapons and keep his features benefits.

To hit with +14 you burn 12 pp, so you can't do this all day and your first turn don't have off hand attack.

 

[neogod22]

The calculator is in a link I putted before.
Soul knife need to burn 80% or his resource, so he don't get much more to do. And I didn't added none of fighter feature (manuevers, one trip attack and the rest is all with advantage, ripose is an extra attack with reaction, action surge and so) or optimized feat (polearm master)
And lvl 9 is the great spot of mystic, I can do the calculation for you at lvl 5 or lvl 11+
And again, soul knife can't have magic weapons and keep his features benefits.

To hit with +14 you burn 12 pp, so you can't do this all day and your first turn don't have off hand attack.

I see you're not good at math. Hone the blade (+2 5pp) augment weapon (+3 5pp). 5+5= 10. Both have a 10min duration, 10 rounds = 1min. So duration 100 rounds. 57pp - 10 = 47pp. 47÷57 = 82% of resources remaining. 20 DEX= +5 +4(prof. Mod)= +9. 9+5 = +14 to hit.

The reason I didn't add all of that stuff you mentioned is because when you do comparisons it has to be apples to apples. You can't use combat menuevers for every attack for 10 rounds, you can't even do it for 3, so no, not being added.

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[zaratan]

I see you're not good at math. Hone the blade (+2 5pp) augment weapon (+3 5pp). 5+5= 10. Both have a 10min duration, 10 rounds = 1min. So duration 100 rounds. 57pp - 10 = 47pp. 47÷57 = 82% of resources remaining. 20 DEX= +5 +4(prof. Mod)= +9. 9+5 = +14 to hit.

The reason I didn't add all of that stuff you mentioned is because when you do comparisons it has to be apples to apples. You can't use combat menuevers for every attack for 10 rounds, you can't even do it for 3, so no, not being added.

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None encounter last 10 rounds, the avg ia about 4, max 5. The standart encounter day is 6-8 encounters wirh 2 short rest. Using manuever for ripose means 5 extra attacks for short rest with +1d10 damage each.polearm master is bonus action attack always + a lot of AoO all day, and fighter can get a magic glaive to decrease to hit difference.
For 10pp, you need to burn all your resoures to last entire day, and don't lose your concentration any time.
And this damage only really ger on at round 3, since first bonus action you ger soul knife, second bonus action augumented weapon and only at than you will use your off hand. Most combats will end at round 4, nice.
And this is the top level of mystic, since they don't really get much at lvl 11+

But is a waste of pp for mystic just to try to be comparable with fighter, they can get so many good stuffs, spend all with damage?

But why you avoid to comment my bigger critic about mystic, the off hand attack, that doesn't synergize with anything, and use booming blade could be a better choice most of the soul knife career. Or you can't hold a stupid map while you're with your soul knife. This is not about being underpowered, is bad design. You really don't have nothing to say about that?

 

[neogod22]

I did a simple apples to apples comparison, not apples to oranges, not apples to lemons. We are not playing the what-if game. Face it, you don't know what you're talking about and am starting to be annoying. If you think a fighter is better, then go play a fighter and get off the forum.

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[zaratan]

I did a simple apples to apples comparison, not apples to oranges, not apples to lemons. We are not playing the what-if game. Face it, you don't know what you're talking about and am starting to be annoying. If you think a fighter is better, then go play a fighter and get off the forum.

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Apple to apple is compare champion with a battle master. If you'll compare no resource with no resource I would be ok, but you're comparing 10pp spend and damage of third round how if was at first with no resouce? And call this "apple to apple"? Or you're trying to compare a what a nova class can do if it was just one encounter/day, with a short rest class, in a game balanced for 6 to 8 encounters/day?
And why the hell you always change the subject to power level when my problem with soul knife is his dual wielder design? I'll not play a fighter, I would play a avatar, awakened, nomad or wu jen mystic, with his features that make sense and synergize with they other features and disciplines. Compare mystic with mystic wouldn't be more "apples to apples"? Why you don't do your soul knife character to be compare?
Please, at least tell me that you're using sophistry on purpose.

 

[neogod22]

Apple to apple is compare champion with a battle master. If you'll compare no resource with no resource I would be ok, but you're comparing 10pp spend and damage of third round how if was at first with no resouce? And call this "apple to apple"? Or you're trying to compare a what a nova class can do if it was just one encounter/day, with a short rest class, in a game balanced for 6 to 8 encounters/day?
And why the hell you always change the subject to power level when my problem with soul knife is his dual wielder design? I'll not play a fighter, I would play a avatar, awakened, nomad or wu jen mystic, with his features that make sense and synergize with they other features and disciplines. Compare mystic with mystic wouldn't be more "apples to apples"? Why you don't do your soul knife character to be compare?
Please, at least tell me that you're using sophistry on purpose.

Look dude, you're the that said fighter, then you added stupid numbers, when I showed the math breakdown, now all of a sudden it's you want compare battle masters with polearms in 5 rounds of combat. Here's a heads up genius, the reason I don't add superiority dice is because you get like 4 of them in a short rest? That gives you1 per round for 4 rounds or 2 in 2 rounds, that's not sustainable damage. Not only that, but going off your "6-8 encounters" rule, that means 3-5 encounters you will face will not have the benefit of a short rest, and will not reset your dice. Also they don't consistently increase your chances to hit, which is what you would need to out DPS the SK, so there was no point in adding them in the equation. Play whatever you want dude I couldn't care less. I told you before why the off-hand does not synergies with powers, because it will be OP, but it seems to me, that's what you're after. To try and be the most OP power gamer. It really doesn't matter which Mystic you play, because the differences for the most part are minor unless you're gonna play heavy your your Order's powers.

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