D&D 5E Mystic Step as a Magical Secret

[crashtestdummy]

Which is an extraordinarily rare situation given that the Bard has expertise in Perception, the Alert feat, the ability to choose their position in the party, and the ability to apply Cutting Words to the enemy's initiative.

There has been only one time that it happened, when we fought a land shark.

1. You can't use Cutting Words if you can't see the enemy at the time of initiative. You have to know where they are to do that. You also can't use it if they're more than 60' away when the DM calls for initiative.
2. You can only use Cutting Words on the initiative of one enemy. All other enemies initiative is unaffected.
3. Alert and expertise in Perception do not help once combat has been started unless your party is sufficiently strong that you can wipe out all opponents before they get to take a turn. Also, since we're talking about general situations, not every bard has Alert (mine doesn't -- as a variant human I went for the party-friendly option of Inspiring Leader).
4. Being able to position yourself in the party doesn't stops a group of enemies moving past your frontline, with the first one or two absorbing the frontline's attacks of opportunity and allowing the next ones through to the bard. That is, unless you have sufficient people in your party that you can be completely surrounded, leaving no gaps for an enemy to get into. Most parties aren't that big.

Regarding number 4 above, it sounds like your DM hasn't used that tactic on you yet. Other DMs will. I've also been ignoring things like rogues using cunning action to dash around your front line, enemy monks with Longstrider cast on them, enemies with Mobility, or enemies able to cast Misty Step themselves. There are a lot of tactics available to get to the backline. I know the DMs I play with use them.

Regarding number 2 above, it sounds like your DM doesn't use multiple opponents very often. Other DMs will. Multiple opponents can be challenging for a lot of parties, regardless of level. That's the most common scenario, in my experience, for when enemies reach the backline. Indeed, so far in our campaign we've been outnumbered in combat more often than not.

In short, not having enemies reach you on their turn could very well be because your DM is too nice. That's great when it happens, but my DMs aren't that nice.

 

[jgsugden]

Shield makes the enemies miss. Misty Step makes them attack other party members.

Shield is better.

Shield may not raise AC enough to make them miss. Misty Step can get you, the last target that would otherwise be in range) out of range of an attack so no attack takes place. Or can get you out of range of attacks that do not target AC.

Misty Step is better.

The truth is actually neither is inherently better. Pick the one that feels like fun to you. They're both 'good enough'.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

1. You can't use Cutting Words if you can't see the enemy at the time of initiative. You have to know where they are to do that. You also can't use it if they're more than 60' away when the DM calls for initiative.

So, the enemy has to, from 60' away, close into melee and attack on round 1. There aren't a lot of enemies who can do that.

2. You can only use Cutting Words on the initiative of one enemy. All other enemies initiative is unaffected.

One is usually sufficient. The enemies do have my allies to contend with as well, after all.

3. Alert and expertise in Perception do not help once combat has been started unless your party is sufficiently strong that you can wipe out all opponents before they get to take a turn.

The issue is enemy closing into melee to attack. What scenario are you thinking of here?

Also, since we're talking about general situations, not every bard has Alert (mine doesn't -- as a variant human I went for the party-friendly option of Inspiring Leader).

But, you could have. The fact that you could have built your character to get the best bang out of Misty Step, but chose not to, makes your character irrelevant to the discussion.

4. Being able to position yourself in the party doesn't stops a group of enemies moving past your frontline, with the first one or two absorbing the frontline's attacks of opportunity and allowing the next ones through to the bard.

Which is why the bard needs to be mobile, something Misty Step gives him and Shield doesn't.

There are a lot of tactics available to get to the backline. I know the DMs I play with use them.

Mine do too. I was attacked from ambush by a land shark, been ambushed by enemy who disguised themselves as petrified adventurers, been attacked by a teleporting roper in a pitch dark room, and other fun times. Misty Step was a lot more helpful than Shield (which our Wizard was using) in those situations.

Regarding number 2 above, it sounds like your DM doesn't use multiple opponents very often.

You're wrong here, too. But, my DM has discovered that it was Charm Person (with the command "protect me") supported with Cutting Words on the save that has helped where Misty Step failed (or Shield would have failed).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...Cutting Words on the save...

Interesting house-rule you guys have there. I didn't realize anyone thought Cutting Words needed a boost. (In case of confusion: Saving throws are not attack rolls, ability checks, nor damage rolls, which are the things the feature is written to affect.)

 

[crashtestdummy]

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere. Either I'm unable to explain myself clearly, or you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about.

So, the enemy has to, from 60' away, close into melee and attack on round 1. There aren't a lot of enemies who can do that.

I never said that. I said you can't use Cutting Words on an enemies initiative unless certain conditions are met. Once initiative is rolled, it remains for the entire combat. Who said that they had to close to melee and attack on round 1? Why can't they close in rounds 3, 4 or 5?

One is usually sufficient. The enemies do have my allies to contend with as well, after all.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand this. You're saying that if you beat one opponent's initiative, none of the others are therefore capable of reaching you?

The issue is enemy closing into melee to attack. What scenario are you thinking of here?

Same scenario. I'm just not assuming that they close in round 1, which is what you appear to be assuming. As I said above, how does Alert and having expertise in Perception stop an enemy from closing in rounds 3, 4 or 5, for example?

But, you could have. The fact that you could have built your character to get the best bang out of Misty Step, but chose not to, makes your character irrelevant to the discussion.

Ah ha! So this conversation about the pros and cons of Shield vs Misty Step only apply to bards with Alert, and presumably only variant humans who take Alert as their level 1 feat?

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking generically as to what to choose at 6th or 10th level, not a pure specific case of your character. Since I brought up Shield in reference to the choice my character will need to make when he reaches 6th level, I thought my character was relevant as an example, though I was trying to look it at more generally and consider the options for all bards, not just mine or yours.

Which is why the bard needs to be mobile, something Misty Step gives him and Shield doesn't.

You've lost me again. Misty Step can only be cast on the bard's turn. How does that stop an enemy in the scenario I gave? Are you saying that the bard needs to use his mobility to be either completely surrounded by his allies or obstacles, or to stay more than the movement rate of the enemies away at all times? Both are rather difficult to achieve in all circumstances.

To reiterate, your allies only get one reaction per round, which means that they can only attack one enemy moving past them to try to get to the bard (and if they don't kill that enemy with that one attack, that enemy still gets to attack the bard). A second enemy following up gets past them without being hit. The only way 'mobility' can stop them bard from being attacked is if he's either so far away that he can't be reached (in which case he's vulnerable to missile fire, which Shield can protect against but Misty Step can't) or he's put himself in a position where there is no free empty spaces next to him for an enemy to move into. I personally don't find that scenario particularly common.

Mine do too. I was attacked from ambush by a land shark, been ambushed by enemy who disguised themselves as petrified adventurers, been attacked by a teleporting roper in a pitch dark room, and other fun times. Misty Step was a lot more helpful than Shield (which our Wizard was using) in those situations.

Can you please clarify -- did Misty Step prevent any of those attacks and if so, how? Or did it allow you get away safely after you were attacked in the first place (and is there any reason you couldn't have gotten away with a Disengage action instead)? These are two different scenarios and the reason for considering the two different spells. As an example, I fail to see how Misty Step prevents a teleporting roper from attacking you. You Misty Step to get away. It teleports next to you and attacks again. All you've done is use up a 2nd level spell slot.

You're wrong here, too. But, my DM has discovered that it was Charm Person (with the command "protect me") supported with Cutting Words on the save that has helped where Misty Step failed (or Shield would have failed).

Since you can't "command" a charmed person, it sounds like your DM is quite generous. You're lucky

For you, with your character and the way you DM seems to do things, Misty Step is a great choice. What I can't work out is if so, why you made the original post in this thread. You've obviously been using it for at least a couple levels (I'm assuming you picked it up at 6th level) and think it's great. After two levels of using it, surely you've decided it works? The original post seemed to indicate that you were trying to decide whether it was a good selection. Are you still not sure?

If the original post was asking why it's not in the guides, that's already been answered -- defensive spells are too situational to make them 'optimal' choices. Defensive spells for a lore bard are, by their nature, only used in exceptional situations and therefore are not an 'optimal' choice. That's why Misty Step is not listed in the guides as a recommended spell.

Since I'm not trying to play an optimal character, I'm not worried about that. I'm playing a supporting character, which is why I chose Inspiring Leader as my level 1 feat. It helps the party a lot more than Alert would have. I'm also choosing my spells along the same lines -- spells that help the party as a whole rather than me personally. Choosing a defensive spell for my 6th level Magical Secrets is one of my few 'selfish' choices.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Interesting house-rule you guys have there. I didn't realize anyone thought Cutting Words needed a boost. (In case of confusion: Saving throws are not attack rolls, ability checks, nor damage rolls, which are the things the feature is written to affect.)

Thank you. I'll have to pass that on to the GM. We missed that.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Thank you. I'll have to pass that on to the GM. We missed that.

And I will confess that I missed that, too!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Okay, now I understand. However, since the starting premise I used is that you are attacked because somehow on their turn, the enemy managed to reach you, that means Misty Step can't be used to prevent the attack.

So... you're saying misty step is bad because you created a hypothetical where it is already too late to be used?

The only way it could be used to do so if you can read the enemy's mind to know what they're going to, and how they're going to get to you.

If you're always fighting in featureless concave hulls of limited size, then yes, misty step isn't likely to help you, but it's a rare battlefield that restricts movement such that you can't take advantage of range, without containing barriers to ordinary movement and lines of fire.

 

[crashtestdummy]

So... you're saying misty step is bad because you created a hypothetical where it is already too late to be used?

The alternative is a hypothetical where it's impossible for any enemy to get to you. I personally find that one less likely.

And I've never said Misty Step is bad. I've said that Shield has it's uses that are different to Misty Step. Misty Step doesn't replace Shield -- it addresses a different circumstance. The original comment that prompted the discussion was along the lines of Shield was not worth taking. I'm trying to explain that if the enemy gets to you then Shield is better than Misty Step because it increases your chance of surviving the attack. The replies I'm getting are largely along the lines that that's not true, that Misty Step is capable of protecting you regardless.

If you're always fighting in featureless concave hulls of limited size, then yes, misty step isn't likely to help you, but it's a rare battlefield that restricts movement such that you can't take advantage of range, without containing barriers to ordinary movement and lines of fire.

I agree that there are always battlefield features that you can take advantage of. So can the enemies. It's the notion that you can always have your squishy characters avoid being in melee that I have trouble with.

What's not quantifiable is to what degree does Misty Step allow you to avoid getting into melee in the first place. That's a judgement call based on a person's own experiences with the DM. In my case, I doubt Misty Step would prevent that many cases. The DMs I play with have too many tricks that allow them to penetrate to the backline and engage the squishier characters. Misty Step is great for getting out of melee once you're in, but that's not what is being debated.

The other thing that's not quantifiable is to what degree does Misty Step allow you to exit melee is a way that is superior to using the Disengage action (which doesn't use any resources). If you're running away, Misty Step is vastly superior. If you're merely relocating to a safer spot on the battlefield, Disengage may (or may not) allow you to do that safely. There are too many variables to quantify the degree to which Misty Step is better than Disengage. It's better (because it's clearly better if you just want to run), but overall...?

 

[GSHamster]

In a way, the OP is theorycrafting like a tank. There are essentially two cases to consider: the average case, and the worst case. Sometimes the optimum for the average case is different than the optimum for the worst case.

As I see it, taking Misty Step is optimizing for the worst case, which is being caught in melee by multiple attackers. The average case probably involves avoiding melee, but deflecting the occasional ranged attack.

Usually, though, only tank-type characters bias towards worst-case thinking. This is because their worst case happens a lot more, and has far more serious consequences for their party. Theorycrafters for other roles tend towards average-case thinking.