Mystic Theurge and Precocious Apprentice

[Hypersmurf]

touché I fine bit of rules lawyering there. lol I still wouldn't allow it in my game though.

And you know, that's one of the best ways to deal with a rules lawyer, I think.

"Oh, dear. Yes, I'm forced to admit, it looks like you've found a loophole. As written, it works just like you say it does. Congratulations - very clever. Aaaaa-and... no."

If you try to fight them on the rules, they'll just entrench themselves deeper and deeper in their position. Don't tell them their interpretation is wrong; agree that it's right, explain that there are reasons you don't want to run it that way, and apologetically forbid it.

That way, they have the satisfaction of knowing that they found something potentially gamebreaking, without the negative consequences of actually breaking the game...

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

But at higher levels (we currently have a newly created MT at 14th level in our party, so I can now also see in practice how the theory works out ), they probably are quite decent already, and then it would be too much to add the two extra levels of spellcasting ability.

Bye
Thanee

So this is why someone would want to do it? For two more levels of arcane spellcasting ability earlier?

 

[Scion]

Sounds like they would want it to not suck so horribly at low levels.

I have seen a clr3/wiz3/mt3 in action.. it was 'incredibly' weak compared to everyone else in the party

 

[moritheil]

Sounds like they would want it to not suck so horribly at low levels.

I have seen a clr3/wiz3/mt3 in action.. it was 'incredibly' weak compared to everyone else in the party

Yeah, as near as I can tell the only point is to boost low or mid-level power. In the end, it shouldn't make much difference if you play that PrCs are capped at the 5 or 10 levels of progression that are explicitly shown, right?

(Or if I'm wrong, due to the fact that you can get into other PrCs earlier, please provide me with an imbalanced example.)

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sounds like they would want it to not suck so horribly at low levels.

I have seen a clr3/wiz3/mt3 in action.. it was 'incredibly' weak compared to everyone else in the party

Yeah, as near as I can tell the only point is to boost low or mid-level power. In the end, it shouldn't make much difference if you play that PrCs are capped at the 5 or 10 levels of progression that are explicitly shown, right?

(Or if I'm wrong, due to the fact that you can get into other PrCs earlier, please provide me with an imbalanced example.)

I think the problematic case might arise with an unbalanced split between wizard levels and cleric levels. Say a wiz1/clr4/mt4. A lot better than Scion's example, since the character with PA only loses 1 level of cleric spellcasting in exchange for 5 levels of wizard (as compared to 3 for 6, in Scion's example). Now just because it is not incredibly weak doesn't mean its too strong, but if there were a problem I bet it would be here.

 

[Scion]

Of course

Although compared with a straight cleric..

Clr 9 vs wiz 1/clr3/mt5
9d8 (avg 44) vs 3d8+6d4 (avg 30)
5th level cleric spells vs 4th level cleric spells and 3rd level wizard spells
caster level 9 for cleric spells vs caster level 8 for cleric spells and caster level 6 for arcane spells
F +6, R +3, W +6 vs F +4, R +2, W +9
BAB +6 vs +4
Able to cast all spells in armor vs arcane spell failure for some arcane spells
9th level turning vs 3rd level turning
1 primary stat (wis) vs 2 primary stats (int and wis)
no familiar vs familiar
no feats spent vs 1 feat spent

Is that pretty comprehensive?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Clr 9 vs wiz 1/clr3/mt5
Able to cast all spells in armor vs arcane spell failure for some arcane spells

Though to be fair, it should be pointed out that any arcane spells the Clr 9 casts are potentially subject to ASF as well

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

Fair enough

 

[Thanee]

At higher levels it's more of a problem... for example...

Wizard 1 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10

A 14th level character with 7th level spells (as normal for 14th level characters) *and* 6th level spells from another class on top.

A bit weaker than a cleric when it comes to the other stuff (hp, bab, saves), but 6th level wizard spells surely are much, much, much better than what is lost there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Is that pretty comprehensive?

Not really... only showing one half (and of course the weaker half).

Clr 10 vs wiz 1/clr3/mt5
10d8 (avg 48) vs 3d8+7d4 (avg 34)
5th level cleric spells vs 5th level cleric spells
no wizard spells vs 4th level wizard spells
caster level 10 for cleric spells vs caster level 9 for cleric spells
no arcane caster level vs caster level 7 for arcane spells
F +7, R +3, W +7 vs F +4, R +2, W +9
BAB +7 vs +4
able to cast all spells in armor vs arcane spell failure for some arcane spells
10th level turning vs 3rd level turning
1 primary stat (wis) vs 2 primary stats (int and wis)
no familiar vs familiar
no Scribe Scroll vs Scribe Scroll
no feats spent vs 1 feat spent

Bye
Thanee