Mystic Theurge and Precocious Apprentice

[HeapThaumaturgist]

How does a standard MT stack up against an MT that gets in via this feat?

I keep looking at MT and going: "Hrmmmm .... COULD be cool ... but not worth it." You're losing out on all the bonus feats from Wizard, all the cleric levels (for turning, Domain abilities, etc), and reducing your total caster level (which anybody playing an LA race PC will tell you, HURTS).

It's like Dwarven Defender ... feels like the entry has too many opportunity costs to warrant the class.

--fje

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I keep looking at MT and going: "Hrmmmm .... COULD be cool ... but not worth it." You're losing out on all the bonus feats from Wizard, all the cleric levels (for turning, Domain abilities, etc), and reducing your total caster level (which anybody playing an LA race PC will tell you, HURTS).

It's a little cleaner, on the Arcane side, with Sorcerors, but that means losing another level of Divine casting. Probably not worth it.

If you're willing to delay entry to 9th (it hurts, I know), you can go Favored Soul/Warmage. It puts all of your bonus spells, and your Warmage save DCs, on the same stat, and you can use Favored Soul to cover up the Warmage's weak spots-- defensive/healing and utility spells. Since your Favored Soul spells aren't allowing saving throws, you can afford to dump Wisdom.

Ton of good stuff on both sides that you're losing, including hit dice, but you're just about as flexible as it's possible to become as a spellcaster, and your ability to cast in light armor will help spare your weakened hit points.

 

[B4cchus]

Hello Peepz,

i, being the player this thread is all about, thought i'd join the discussion.
I agree on the dubious nature of using this feat for qualification for MT.

As to the question, what i hope to acchieve: i'm stacking MT with True Necromancer. Getting the MT one level earlier gains me a cleric caster level. It's not a munchkin build, but using MT
-and- true necromancer is not very overpowered, maybe it's even underpowered, so i think i can use every caster lvl i can get..

As for the debate on "able to cast spells": i disagree on the opninion that he can cast only one spell per day, or only one different spell per day. Not only do some lvl3 "regular" spellcasters only cast one spell per day, but this argument can easliy be circumvented with taking the feat twice, or with the metamagic feat "alternate spell source".

and finally for the statement that this is an optional feat: rule 0 dictates that ALL feats are optional (all rules for that matter).

Cheers!
B4cchus

 

[Thanee]

As to the question, what i hope to acchieve: i'm stacking MT with True Necromancer. Getting the MT one level earlier gains me a cleric caster level. It's not a munchkin build, but using MT -and- true necromancer is not very overpowered, maybe it's even underpowered, so i think i can use every caster lvl i can get.

Actually, using both "wizard/cleric dual caster" PrC is pretty likely very overpowered (at high levels, obviously).

There's a reason, why the epic Mystic Theurge does NOT grant simultaneous development of caster level anymore.

Bye
Thanee

 

[B4cchus]

I think the "dual-class" spellcaster isn't that overpowered. You lose quite some caster levels and acces to high level spells. The great many of spells you get in return are very nice... but you still only get to cast them one at a time.
Two lvl 5 characters make mince meat out of a 10th level thuerge, while a 10th level "single class" caster drops those two lvl 5 casters in one fireball.

Cheers,
B4cchus

-edit-

at high levels you miss out on the punch that the highest level spells can deal. Still casting 1 spell per round.. and it matters a lot if that spell can be a lvl 9. In my experience the power curve of spells really goes up fast after level 5.

 

[reveal]

and finally for the statement that this is an optional feat: rule 0 dictates that ALL feats are optional (all rules for that matter).

But some are more optional than others. Consider these feats "optional optionals" since they're in a sidebar, over 100 pages away from the feats section in the book, with specific verbiage that tells the DM they "may" allow them in the game.

 

[B4cchus]

But some are more optional than others. Consider these feats "optional optionals" since they're in a sidebar, over 100 pages away from the feats section in the book, with specific verbiage that tells the DM they "may" allow them in the game.

Somehow that feels like saying that some dead are deader than others, but i guess its just a matter of style. I don't view any rule holier than others, just because it's in the SRD and not in some expansion, on page 181, or whatever. If it's broken, it's broken, nomatter what the source is.

 

[Thanee]

That's right, but this feat is just an example for the DM, it's not even a real feat.

Anyways, that was no more than a side comment...

I think the "dual-class" spellcaster isn't that overpowered. You lose quite some caster levels and acces to high level spells. The great many of spells you get in return are very nice... but you still only get to cast them one at a time.
Two lvl 5 characters make mince meat out of a 10th level thuerge, while a 10th level "single class" caster drops those two lvl 5 casters in one fireball.

A 10th level MT has *5th* level spells, if you allow that feat... How will those 5th level chars deal with 10d6 (<- Practiced Spellcaster) Flamestrikes and Greater Commands, exactly?

at high levels you miss out on the punch that the highest level spells can deal.

Indeed, that is the price to pay for the breadth in spell choice and high number of spells per day the MT enjoys.

Still casting 1 spell per round...

...as everyone else...

...and it matters a lot if that spell can be a lvl 9. In my experience the power curve of spells really goes up fast after level 5.

It most definitely does, tho that is quite consistent over all levels. The jump to 3rd level is a rather big one as well. Overall every spell level roughly doubles the power level of the previous one.

The MT/TN will gain access to 9th level spells from both cleric and wizard eventually, IIRC, the true necromancer has alternating levels in cleric and wizard for the first 4 levels in the PrC and after that they proceed to advance simultaneously for another 10, right?

So, a cleric3/wizard1/MT10/TN6 (at 20th level) has the casting ability of a 17th-level cleric (caster level 20th with Practiced Spellcaster) and a 15th level wizard (caster level 19th with Practiced Spellcaster), that's 9th level divine spells *and* 8th level arcane spells! At 22nd level only, both will have 9th level spells and then for another 6 levels they will advance caster level simultaneously.

How is it not broken to spend only 5 levels total to gain the full range of 1st thru 9th level spells of another class at that level?

Bye
Thanee

 

[B4cchus]

A 10th level MT has *5th* level spells, if you allow that feat... How will those 5th level chars deal with 10d6 (<- Practiced Spellcaster) Flamestrikes and Greater Commands, exactly?

A single class caster gets that feat-slot and more feats (e.g. wizard bonus feats) to add to his 10d6 fireball.. eg an empowered fireball, or a highly divine metamagiced divine spell so that 10d6 fireball isn't all to impressing compared to that.

Indeed, that is the price to pay for the breadth in spell choice and high number of spells per day the MT enjoys. ...as everyone else...

With this argument i'm trying to point out that having a larger amount of spells or a greater diversity of spells isn't always better: casting a signle higher level spell is in many occasions more effective.

The MT/TN will gain access to 9th level spells from both cleric and wizard eventually, IIRC, the true necromancer has alternating levels in cleric and wizard for the first 4 levels in the PrC and after that they proceed to advance simultaneously for another 10, right?

Not entirely, i believe he has non-double levels on lvl 1 and 2 and on lvl 6 and 7, although i don't have the book at hand.

So, a cleric3/wizard1/MT10/TN6 (at 20th level) has the casting ability of a 17th-level cleric (caster level 20th with Practiced Spellcaster) and a 15th level wizard (caster level 19th with Practiced Spellcaster), that's 9th level divine spells *and* 8th level arcane spells! At 22nd level only, both will have 9th level spells and then for another 6 levels they will advance caster level simultaneously.

First off, i'm using w1/cl3/mt1/tn14/mt1, mainly for flavour. I'm just pushing in the one MT to bridge the gap. It's not (fully) a power build, i want to concentrate on the necromancer oart.
The way you build it, is indeed the MT munchkin build.

How is it not broken to spend only 5 levels total to gain the full range of 1st thru 9th level spells of another class at that level?

Because spellcaster classes are top-heavy. The gain you get at those 5 levels on top is worth a lot, especially your way to level 20. Al level 7, e.g. you suck *ss while the other party members run in circles around you.

Finally.. it is a WLD party, we're taking it from lvl 1 to 20, so it's not just an instant supa-high-level build.

Cheers,
B4cchus

 

[Lord Igor]

Well, after having read all the posts so far, I, being Bacchus' DM, have decided to let him have a swing at it. He can use the feat to qualify for MT early.

We'll just have to see how his character balances out against the other party members. Some of you seem to think that the 'damage' to game balance is relatively minor or non-existant.

Just so you all know in what kind of party this MT is going to appear: one of his fellow party members is a big bundle o' hitpoints & immunities ('H' the warforged juggernaut, nigh-impossible to kill) and another is a mind-thrusting, overchanneling, highly specialized Psion death-dealer (can kill anything that isn't mindless really fast and everything else a bit slower but just a painfully).

Tobin, the Kender scout, recently got lost and will never be seen again (his player moved to the US, which is half a world away), so we'll disregard him.

Then we of course also have Nolim the Psion-rogue, we can deal incredible amounts of damage with a single arrow. And always manages to either fail to attain psionic focus or misses with his attack anyway. If he hits, it's a load of d6's damage for the unfortunate victim.