Mystic Theurge (full 20 progression)

[Cheiromancer]

Gez and I worked on variant multiclassing rules that let you take gestalt levels at character level 6 and every even level thereafter. You just had to have a fairly even split at level 5. Also, you have to take a level of a base class after taking a level of gestalt.

That's a simple way of getting 14/14 in two spellcasting classes (or 18/10 if you alternate the same base class with the gestalt levels) and gives good eldritch knight types as well.

 

[Sadrik]

Gez and I worked on variant multiclassing rules that let you take gestalt levels at character level 6 and every even level thereafter. You just had to have a fairly even split at level 5. Also, you have to take a level of a base class after taking a level of gestalt.

That's a simple way of getting 14/14 in two spellcasting classes (or 18/10 if you alternate the same base class with the gestalt levels) and gives good eldritch knight types as well.

Hm, interesting but a little more complex than saying "here player, here is you mage preist combo that you invisioned your character being" without getting into the "you have to multi-class here then pick up this prestige class that is supposed to fix how grossly weak your character would have been without it."

BTW having an 18/10 split is way more powerful than spliting 14/14. Those four levels in a casting class give you a massive boost. Like 8th and 9th level spells! Too strong imo. And it might also be clunky early on like the other PrC's are. If a player has a concept of playing a fighter/mage, rogue/mage or priest/mage they should be able to begin their career in that concept rather than jump through 5 hoops to get the concept that they were looking for.

Sadrik

 

[ZuulMoG]

Broken. Now that I've seen an attempt at balancing this beast, I see why it is so despised.

We represent the Lullaby League, The Lullaby League, The Lullaby League
And in the name of the Lullaby League,
We wish to welcome you to Munchkinland.
We represent the Lollypop Guild, The Lollypop Guild, The Lollypop Guild
And in the name of the Lollypop Guild,
We wish to welcome you to Muchkinland.
We welcome you to Munchkinland, Tra la la la la la la
From now on you'll be history.
You'll be history, you'll be history, you'll be history.
And we will glorify your name.
You will be a bust, be a bust, be a bust
In the Hall of Fame!

 

[Bront]

Broken. Now that I've seen an attempt at balancing this beast, I see why it is so despised.

We represent the Lullaby League, The Lullaby League, The Lullaby League
And in the name of the Lullaby League,
We wish to welcome you to Munchkinland.
We represent the Lollypop Guild, The Lollypop Guild, The Lollypop Guild
And in the name of the Lollypop Guild,
We wish to welcome you to Muchkinland.
We welcome you to Munchkinland, Tra la la la la la la
From now on you'll be history.
You'll be history, you'll be history, you'll be history.
And we will glorify your name.
You will be a bust, be a bust, be a bust
In the Hall of Fame!

Gee, that was constructive and helpfull.

Glad you learned how to use code blocks. Much nicer

I don't like how the spell slots all become one slot. I think it would be more balanced if you simply split it in half and use the progression you used in the other classes for both casters. Otherwise, you could memorize all wizard spells with one level, and all druid/cleric spells with another.

I like the limit to one domain. Works well.

I would get rid of the bonus feats, or at least at levels 5 and 15. but I don't think the class needs them. Especialy since they get full turning. Or, you can keep the Channeling like you do, allow them to spend one of their extra feats on turning (Which starts at that level) or can power divine feats, and then allow the extra feats, which I think works better and gives the Theurge a bit more of a possable non-cleric feel. Given you have a druidic option, you may want to ask if a druidic theurge should be able to turn?

I think this class works well with the few changes I suggest up there. normaly, a Cleric 5/Wiz 5/MT 10 gets 1 bonus feat, 5 levels of familiar advancement, 5 levels of turning, and is caster level 15 with both classes and has 8th level spells, with 2 domains, and possibly specialization, and a few save boosts (good fort save for cleric, and 3 classes with good will save). Here, you get CL20 with both, full turning, but no bonus feats or other abilities. This actualy makes the theurge a bit weaker (if you keep the bonus feats, a bit stronger) than the normal PrC (I don't, you give up a lot, especialy before you enter it), and if people have a problem with that class, this might work better for them.

 

[Sadrik]

I don't like how the spell slots all become one slot. I think it would be more balanced if you simply split it in half and use the progression you used in the other classes for both casters. Otherwise, you could memorize all wizard spells with one level, and all druid/cleric spells with another.

Well, I did this so that if the character went into a PrC they would still advance in their casting fully and not have to choose one or the other. I think that the slots are powerful because they are doubled up giving a lot of versatility, but remember as the trade off they dont have the high level spells that a wizard or cleric would have at an equal level.

The feats are fine as is imo, they are limited to metamagic, craft, spellmastery and acquiring a familiar. Not that powerful but could be useful for sure.

The channeling ability I am on the fence though. I really dont envision my mystic turning undead. I think I will likely drop that, would anybody be absolutly opposed to the idea?

Sadrik

 

[ZuulMoG]

I'm opposed to the whole class. Few campaigns ever deal with 8th or 9th level spells, so losing them is not a serious limitation. Make them learn limited spells as a sorceror, no bonus feats, and every day four outsiders, one from each extreme alignment, shows up and knees them in the groin dealing 2x their hit points in subdual damage.

Well, maybe just ONE outsider of opposed alignment...

 

[HellHound]

...and every day four outsiders, one from each extreme alignment, shows up and knees them in the groin dealing 2x their hit points in subdual damage.

Well, maybe just ONE outsider of opposed alignment...

Once again, very constructive criticism.

I appreciate the work you are putting into building these core class builds, Sadrik - but of all of them, this will be the hardest to get even-handed feeback on. A lot of people still consider the MT to be uber-munchy (as seen in this thread), and anything that looks like an MT gets put in the same basket.

That said, I like the channeling instead of turning undead, because the PrC MT's turning ability doesn't go up when MT levels are gained, so ditching turning completely feels fully legit to me. Without the bonus feats, I'd be strongly inclined to include this in some of my campaigns.

 

[Sadrik]

I'm opposed to the whole class. Few campaigns ever deal with 8th or 9th level spells, so losing them is not a serious limitation. Make them learn limited spells as a sorceror, no bonus feats.

You are right they dont get them. But it takes you till 4th level to get second level spells, 7th for third level spells and 10th level to get fourth level spells. I dont think I need to remind you when the other classes get their spells.

It is not as powerful as the MT PrC and congeals better at lower level. If you have some more specific gripes, please...

Sadrik

 

[ZuulMoG]

Why not just allow gestalt Cleric-Wizards? It would save a lot of time.

Seriously, I appreciate that you're trying, but it's not the PrC that's broken, it's the concept. An ostensibly arcane spellcaster getting divine spells is WRONG. The only way this class concept could work is if it was priests of the god of magic (Boccob, etc...) getting arcane spells added to their list. They should turn/rebuke constructs and summons instead of undead though.

Divine spells are the exclusive province of the divine (and yeah, I have a serious bug up my arse about CLW being on the Bard's list, nobody ever got cured of damage listening to no bard in Skara Brae). Unless this class is clearly religious in nature, divine spells should not be available to it.

 

[HellHound]

Unless this class is clearly religious in nature, divine spells should not be available to it.

Considering that Clerics don't have to have deities, I don't think this is that much of a stretch. Personally, if you house rule (or play in a setting where it has become a core rule) that Clerics require sponsoring deities, then obviously MTs require deities in the same role also.

Why not just allow gestalt Cleric-Wizards? It would save a lot of time.

Because that would be a LOT more powerful than this class, and thus wouldn't be balanceable against the core classes in any way. A gestalt Wizard / Cleric gets level 2 spells at level 3, level 3 spells at level 5, and level 4 spells at level 7... whereas this MT gets serious slow-downs in this spell acquisition. In addition, the cleric-wizard gestalt gets full familliar advancement, two clerical domains, more spells per day, more weapon and armor proficiencies.