Mystic Thurge - Is it broken?

[Methos]

I'm trying to convince my DM to allow the Mystic Thurge prestige class in his campaign. I have some great ideas about how to incorporate it into his home-cooked campaign in terms of background, etc., and why my character would be interested in the class from a role-playing perspective.

He may end up being on board from the campaign/world-building ideas that I have, after we discuss them a bit further, however, he thinks currently that the class in its existing format may be broken. We may have to try to figure out additional ways that we could increase the "cost" if you will of allowing the class. For example, requiring additional feats is one way of making it more "costly" to take the class. Personally, I don't think it is necessary to do that.

However, I wanted to know if other folks think the class is broken and why?

My own analysis yields the following:

Pros of the Class:

1. The obvious one is that you can rise concurrently as a spellcaster in both arcane and divine spells. This is certainly a potentially very powerful mix. I've assumed cleric for my analysis, but you could assume druid as well.

Cons of the Class:

1. Lower hit die than a cleric,

2. No longer gain levels for purposes of undead turning,

3. No longer have the more favorable save bonuses as a cleric, but more like a wizard/sorcerer,

4. Give up at least 3 levels of either Wizard or Cleric in order to meet the cross class requirement. In effect, you will still not be as effective at casting arcane spells as a pure arcane caster would, nor will you be as effective a divine caster as a pure divine spellcaster would be.

5. Assuming you max out on the Mystic Thurge, you give up 3 bonus item creation/metamagic feats compared to a pure wizard (sorcerers do not apply here) assuming you max out at 20th character level.

6. A sorcerer will never gain access to 9th level spells assuming a 20th character level max for a campaign.

7. Depending on what ability generation system is in use, you may suffer in terms of allocating your ability scores and in allocating the 1 point increase every 4 levels. In effect, your spell DC's probably won't be as good as either a pure cleric, or a pure wizard/sorcerer. In addition, if you choose to play a wizard, you will most likely have a relatively low charisma, which will impact such things as undead turning. I'm assuming a 30 point buy such as in our campaign. Not to mention that your survivability could suffer due to perhaps lower dex/con, depending on how you choose to allocate your points.

8. Your attack bonuses are not as good as a pure cleric.

Does anyone else wish to comment? Granted, the fact that you can rise as both an arcane and divine spellcaster at the same time is very powerful, however, I think all of the above detriments to taking the Mystic Thurge may compensate. In effect, you have been given access to virtually all spells, but at a fairly significant cost I would argue.

Please comment, I would like to hear some different perspectives.

 

[jgsugden]

Appearances can be deceiving. Many people complained about this class when it first appeared, but it is clealy less powerful than they originally thought (if fr not other reason than most of the spells that they complained would be abused have been changed).

I suggest asking the DM if you can try it out. If the DM finds it to be a problem, hand the PC over to the DM to become an NPC and make a new PC.

 

[sithramir]

You are not even equivalent of a normal multiclass til 8th lvl with it. Its not decently powerful til 14th level where you start gaining 6th level spells in both classes. At this point others are still casting several 7th level and the fact that you lose a few wizard feats and clerical turning undead abilities along with being forced to take d4 hps instead of the clerics d8's on those levels its ok. Its overpowered possibly at 20th level but not beforehand. Just makes your guy really versatile in spells. But trust me the straight wizard with that level higher of spellcasting will still be able to shine more.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Personally I think it is fine.

With the change of Haste, having tons of lower power spells is no big deal during combat.

In my mind it is completely obvious that the Mystic Theurge in <i>not</i> overpowered for characters level 14 or below. They are perhaps a little on the weak side until you hit 10th level.

If I were DM, I would positively encourage a PC to be a Mystic Theurge. It creates a very robust and flexible character, but one that has delayed access to the campaign warping magicks like Teleport and powerful divinations.

 

[gfunk]

I agree with most of the comments posted here. It is one of those things that looks great on paper but is not nearly as powerful when put into actual play.

As others mentioned, there have been major changes to spells that steal the thunder of the "MT's are broken crowd."

It may be worth mentioning is that this class rapidly becomes worthless if taken to epic levels. According to the WotC, the MT gains an additional arcane and divine spellcasting level at every odd and even level respectively, rather than both at every level.

 

[Technik4]

The only time you will really feel "overpowered" in a group is if there is a single-class dedicated wiz/sor and a single-class dedicated clr/drd. Both of these people may feel you are getting "the best of both worlds" and you are stepping on their toes too much. In a party without those single-classers, or in a party with multiclassed characters, the mystic theurge slips right in. As you pointed out, a theurge gives up quite a bit to have so many spells.

You forgot to mention that any domain abilities as a cleric would be weaker (Death Domain, Protection Domain, Sun Domain, etc).

You also forgot that your familiar will not be nearly as powerful as it should be in terms of abilities, but it may end up with more hp overall (trade-off).

Furthermore a single class spellcaster can often stack prcs (DM willing), creating a Red Wizard/Archmage or Candle Caster/Exorcist. A theurge has invested so much in "mastering" both arcane and divine magic that she can scarcely afford to enter a prc (and not until theurge has been maxed, meaning min 16th level). Furthermore a single-classer can afford a prc where they may not gain casting levels evey level (Eldritch Knight? See also: Tome and Blood) and to a theurge those spellcasting levels are even more critical.

Finally while one may dare to make a drow wizard or a half-dragon cleric, you would have to be bonkers to try a theurge with an ECL of more than 1 (and even 1 hurts).

Technik

 

[Number47]

I think it all depends on the level you are creating the character at. If you are starting at 1st, going the MT route is very, very painful and should rightfully be fairly powerful when you hit 16th level or so. If you are creating an 18th level character, well you are able to bypass all the pain and hard decisions and it might be in the DM's best interest to mildly nerf the class.

 

[Cedric]

Other considerations when deciding how powerful the Mystic Theurge is...

Metamagic feats are seriously watered down, because the character is already taking a hit in maximum level of spells to be cast. Combined with the fact that the character has to have two prime attributes which likely also reduces his available spells per day...and most of the good metamagic feats become too much of a burden to warrant using them in lower level or higher level games.

Also, most combats are relatively short in terms of the number of rounds you go through. Assuming you have plenty of time to prepare for combat and know exactly when it will start...then the MT becomes very effective (tempered by the fact that the good buffs have reduced duration now).

But eliminate that prep time and the MT takes a sharp drop in power. Assuming a combat of 5 rounds (which is fairly common) and the MT will have the chance to cast at most 5 spells. Assuming no great maneuvering or emergency actions. Having a quickened spell is nearly impossible...so forget that. So in essence, yes the MT has a lot of spells per day...but how often is he going to get to use most of them? How often do you have multiple combats in one day?

If your GM throws 2-3 combats a day at you, always with prep time before-hand...then he's doing something wrong...and the MT will be a walking magical juggernaut. But with a more realistic expectation of combats per day, prep time and opponents...the MT powers down some.

Also, let's not forget the bane of all spellcasters. Spell resistance. The MT is taking a 3 point deficit in his chances to overcome Spell Resistance. So the MT loses some effectiveness at higher levels too.

Mystic Theurges are a good class, I certainly wouldn't rank them lowly on the list of Prestige Classes, they beat out many of them. But they are not unbalanced in my opinion.

Cedric

 

[Methos]

The only time you will really feel "overpowered" in a group is if there is a single-class dedicated wiz/sor and a single-class dedicated clr/drd. Both of these people may feel you are getting "the best of both worlds" and you are stepping on their toes too much. In a party without those single-classers, or in a party with multiclassed characters, the mystic theurge slips right in. As you pointed out, a theurge gives up quite a bit to have so many spells.

You forgot to mention that any domain abilities as a cleric would be weaker (Death Domain, Protection Domain, Sun Domain, etc).

You also forgot that your familiar will not be nearly as powerful as it should be in terms of abilities, but it may end up with more hp overall (trade-off).

Technik

Well, I don't think that I will have to worry about offending the party cleric. We don't have one. I took a level of cleric at character level 1 simply because nobody wanted to be one. We are now 5-7 level in character level. There is one other single classed wizard, but I don't think that he would particularly worry about the Theurge abilities, not when he depends on me for the limited healing I can provide. The remainder of the party is a Bard, a Fighter/Barbarian (the party tank), a Ranger, and a Rogue. I also have a level of Fighter (with an exotic weapon - spiked chain). I also have 4 levels of Wizard. The character is actually one of the more valuable members of the party (cough, cough) due to his flexibility.

Actually, one of the reasons why I was attracted to the class, besides that fact that I think the rationale for the existence of the PrC in this world is not only solid, but could create campaign ideas for the DM, is that the party seriously could use some additional divine spells (not just healing). I do think that my character has sort of evolved into the "filler" character who is able to contribute in a variety of ways, but really is a master of none. As a result, the Mystic Theurge is really something that I think could provide some additional flexibility. Plus, my character has some other campaign related reasons for having a desire to move towards this class. They aren't important to mention here, other than to say I think it could add to the flavor of the campaign. With the level of Fighter that I have already, I would have to take another level of Fighter to avoid exp. point penalties, but that is all right, since like I said my character is becoming the filler character in a way.

I had forgotten about the potentially lesser domain powers and the reduced familiar capabilities.

Cheers

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Furthermore a single class spellcaster can often stack prcs (DM willing), creating a Red Wizard/Archmage or Candle Caster/Exorcist. A theurge has invested so much in "mastering" both arcane and divine magic that she can scarcely afford to enter a prc (and not until theurge has been maxed, meaning min 16th level). Furthermore a single-classer can afford a prc where they may not gain casting levels evey level (Eldritch Knight? See also: Tome and Blood) and to a theurge those spellcasting levels are even more critical.

Finally while one may dare to make a drow wizard or a half-dragon cleric, you would have to be bonkers to try a theurge with an ECL of more than 1 (and even 1 hurts).

Technik

I don't think the Myth is too powerful ... but these aren't costs. PrCs and non-core races are strictly optional. In any event, the Myth is not an independent spellcasting class, which means that a Red Wizard who also has this class will only gain arcane spellcasting levels for his Red Wizard PrC. This has also been confirmed by Andy Collins.