Mystic Thurge - Is it broken?

[Petrosian]

Maybe i missed it.

Does the +1 spellcsting class also apply for spells known?

In all the references, it clealry spells out that it applies to caster levels and spell PER DAY. it does not mention spells known

"Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day."

So would a sorcerer3/Cleric3 (boccob)/MyTh7 only have the sorcerer spells known of a 3rd level sorcerer? Would a wizard not gain the 2 free spells per level of MyTH?

If not, and if it applies to spells known too, is there erratta?

 

[Skinwalker]

Does the +1 spellcsting class also apply for spells known?

Yes. It applies to caster level and spells known, but no other benefits of advancing in the spellcasting class (such as familiar bonuses, turn undead, and the like).

 

[Master of the Game]

I was wondering about the MT myself, so I had my party escort one across the war-torn kingdom from which they hail (Cormyr in the Realms... long story, think Incursion meets Babylon 5).

They are a party of 5 11th to 13th level characters, she is a aasimar Sorc 4/Evengelist 4/MT 4.

When the party got attacked she jumped in and tried to help. Our Evoker through Polar ray at the dragon, which did 50-60 points of damage and didn't allow a save. She through out Ice Storn, but couldn't pierce it's SR, and only managed to do 15 points of damage to a couple of its minions that failed their saves.

Broken? Hardly. She spent the rest of the combat picking off injured minions and doing some back-up healing with Mass Cure Light Wounds and Cure Serious on those who were in bad shape.

Basically, she was a support character. Useful to fill whatever role was needed at the time, but not able to keep up with the straight classes in the main fight.

 

[Methos]

For the DMs who think MyTh is broken....have they actually tried to build one?

I have, for two different NPCs in my game. Think about it: as DM I can pull all of the uber-munchkin tricks in the book to tweak these characters out.

Bottom line: they were still weaker that Ozzy Osborne on prozac.

"Oooo. Look at all of the 2nd level spells this 11th level NPC can cast. Wow......the 5th level PCs could take 'im in 3 rounds......"

Let it go, guys: Mystic Theurge isn't broken.

This was so classic!! Can I quote you on this thread to my DM?

Along with the response above about building a sample MT at different levels, I think these are the best replies that I have seen yet.

One question, however, what levels did your MT have for the 2 NPC's you tried, and what were the uber-munchkin tricks that you had for them that didn't seem to work?

I know that my character, in all likelihood, at higher levels won't be able to match the other single classed PC's at any one thing, however, wouldn't a 20 level character with the following classes still be effective?

Keep in mind that the party has no cleric, so we are severely handicapped, but the 4th level cleric spells will help somewhat....
Like I said, assuming we can come to a good compromise on the MT, this is what I was thinking of eventually building since my character becomes a bit of a jack-of-all-trades.

Cleric/Fighter/Wizard/MT
3/2/11/4

Effectively, the Cleric Caster level is 7 (access to 4th level spells), the Wizard 15 (access to 8th level spells). At 20th level, he will have an INT of 18, WIS of 14

Feats:

Combat Expertise
Spiked Chain Exotic Pro. (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Improved Disarm
Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Steeped in Darkness (custom campaign feat).
Craft Wondrous Item
Craft Wand
Craft Arms/Armor
Spell Penetration
Empower Spell
Highten Spell
Either Greater Spell Penetration or Craft Rod

If folks think that this character isn't going to be playable at higher levels, please let me know.

 

[Nail]

I was wondering about the MT myself, so I had my party escort one ....(snip)... a aasimar Sorc 4/Evengelist 4/MT 4.....(snip).... she was a support character. Useful to fill whatever role was needed at the time, but not able to keep up with the straight classes in the main fight.

Right.

The other problem with your build, of course, is the aasimar part. That +1 LA can make a big difference. Still, nice to see you capitalized on the Wis and Cha bonuses.

 

[Methos]

I was wondering about the MT myself, so I had my party escort one across the war-torn kingdom from which they hail (Cormyr in the Realms... long story, think Incursion meets Babylon 5).

They are a party of 5 11th to 13th level characters, she is a aasimar Sorc 4/Evengelist 4/MT 4.

When the party got attacked she jumped in and tried to help. Our Evoker through Polar ray at the dragon, which did 50-60 points of damage and didn't allow a save. She through out Ice Storn, but couldn't pierce it's SR, and only managed to do 15 points of damage to a couple of its minions that failed their saves.

Broken? Hardly. She spent the rest of the combat picking off injured minions and doing some back-up healing with Mass Cure Light Wounds and Cure Serious on those who were in bad shape.

Basically, she was a support character. Useful to fill whatever role was needed at the time, but not able to keep up with the straight classes in the main fight.

What does the evangelist do? Spell caster? Please give me a brief summary so I can put this into context.

 

[Methos]

Right.

The other problem with your build, of course, is the aasimar part. That +1 LA can make a big difference. Still, nice to see you capitalized on the Wis and Cha bonuses.

I also thought the Aasimar part might be a problem. I like the abilities, but I think that they weaken you as a spellcaster. Like I'm one to talk, given my character concept!!

 

[Nail]

One question, however, what levels did your MT have for the 2 NPC's you tried, and what were the uber-munchkin tricks that you had for them that didn't seem to work?

Aack. Sorry, but my players cruise these boards pretty frequently. Can't give specifics.

The problem was the higher level spells. I had at first assumed that they wouldn't be missed.....boy, was I wrong. Second was the magic item creation: my caster level wasn't high enough for appropriate magic items at that level. Third, the lower level cleric spells I had been used to using in 3.0e.....just were not as useful in 3.5e. (But that's not news, is it?) The buff combos I was hoping for were not ...uhmm...spectacular.

Like I said, assuming we can come to a good compromise on the MT, this is what I was thinking of eventually building since my character becomes a bit of a jack-of-all-trades.

Cleric/Fighter/Wizard/MT
3/2/11/4

Tell yer DM he's got exactly Zero to worry about from you. Any additional prereq.s is just adding insult to injury.

Your DM is used to low level PCs right? That's why he's nervous of this build. Tell 'im to look around here...there's plenty of examples of upper level play, and for they most part they'd all eat that build fer breakfast.

 

[Nail]

I also thought the Aasimar part might be a problem. I like the abilities, but I think that they weaken you as a spellcaster. Like I'm one to talk, given my character concept!!

The problem is the combination. Both of the spell casters delay higherlevel spells by one level, and the aasimar delays those higher level spells yet again. Then add to that the (permanent) delay of higher level spells because of the Mystic Theurge......

That build has taken an effective 6 level hit on spell levels. Delay, delay, delay. (for the example given: 12th level character, 4th level spells max => Ouch.)

 

[Methos]

Aack. Sorry, but my players cruise these boards pretty frequently. Can't give specifics.

The problem was the higher level spells. I had at first assumed that they wouldn't be missed.....boy, was I wrong. Second was the magic item creation: my caster level wasn't high enough for appropriate magic items at that level. Third, the lower level cleric spells I had been used to using in 3.0e.....just were not as useful in 3.5e. (But that's not news, is it?) The buff combos I was hoping for were not ...uhmm...spectacular.




Tell yer DM he's got exactly Zero to worry about from you. Any additional prereq.s is just adding insult to injury.

Your DM is used to low level PCs right? That's why he's nervous of this build. Tell 'im to look around here...there's plenty of examples of upper level play, and for they most part they'd all eat that build fer breakfast.

Interesting. Given that we haven't yet ever hit levels past 7, we are all a bit inexperienced at higher level play. I must admit, my biggest concern is save DC's and SR particularly once we start hitting levels 10 and up. So far, at low levels, it hasn't been a huge problem, but that was the main reason why I was expecting to take Spell Penetration and probably Greater Spell Penetration as well. I don't expect the divine spells to do much else other than buff, protect, and heal. I was still optimistic that with some additional buffing through things like Headband of Intellect and hightened spells that I could get wizard spell DC's high enough to get some (certainly not all) wizard spells off to affect monsters and NPC's. Perhaps I'm overly optimistic.