Naming saves old school

Frostmarrow

First Post
How about naming the different defensive ability score checks (read saves) after the saving throws of old?

Constitution: Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic
Intelligence: Rod, Staff, or Wand
Strength: Petrification or Polymorph
Dexterity: Breath Weapon
Wisdom: Spell
Charisma: Fear*

* The Fear save was basically a modified version of PPDM.

Why would we want to obfuscate saves in this manner? Because it's cool, and we are smart enough to cope with it.
 

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How about naming the different defensive ability score checks (read saves) after the saving throws of old?

Constitution: Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic
Intelligence: Rod, Staff, or Wand
Strength: Petrification or Polymorph
Dexterity: Breath Weapon
Wisdom: Spell
Charisma: Fear*

* The Fear save was basically a modified version of PPDM.

Why would we want to obfuscate saves in this manner? Because it's cool, and we are smart enough to cope with it.


I am not sure what this proposed breakdown adds. It did not make intuitive sense for me 25 years ago and still doesnt to day. I dont think the core should have game concepts that are overly obfuscated - even though there may be space for this in modules etc.
 

I don't like the idea, at least the Intelligence case is just plain wrong, because it suggests that every save vs the effect of a Wand require an Int save. It makes no sense, since Wands can have a variety of spell effects (well we haven't seen any 5e wands of course, they could make them usable only for some intellect-affecting spells).
 

Spell was always the general, catch-all save. I wasn't a fan, since the rest of the saves were rather specific.

For me, save breakdown would be like this:

Str: avoiding knockdown/knockback, holding on
Con: poison, disease, pain (or Wis)
Dex: dodging, reflexes
Int: illusion
Wis: acts of willpower, pain (or Con), fear (or Cha)
Cha: charm, compulsion, fear (or Wis)
 

Being a huge fan of AD&D, I actually like the "old" saves. They are not perfect (and in fact I added a sixth category for traps & mishaps), but they can work very well.

However, they are part of a completely different philosophy: the save depends on what you're defending against and not how you are defending yourself. As such, I can't really see how to put them together with a system that makes save dependent on a specific stat (like 5e).

Some spells attack the mind, others the body and others yet have to be dodged. Why would wisdom affect all of them? Also, as others have already pointed out, the category for rods, staves and wands wouldn't make any sense under this system. In AD&D it is a separate category, because the spell-like effects from those devices are meant to be easier to save against than 'real' spells. Why would they become intelligence saves as opposed to wisdom saves for real spells?
 

I like this idea not as part of the core, but as something to put into an appendix for the conversation of classic modules to 5e. So I'd change the saves to reflect the prime requisites of the classes that have been historically good at them:

WIS - Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
CON - Petrification or Polymorph
DEX - Rod, Staff or Wand
STR - Breath Weapon
INT - Spell
CHA - Charm, Fear, or Dominate
 

How about naming the different defensive ability score checks (read saves) after the saving throws of old?

Constitution: Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic
Intelligence: Rod, Staff, or Wand
Strength: Petrification or Polymorph
Dexterity: Breath Weapon
Wisdom: Spell
Charisma: Fear*

* The Fear save was basically a modified version of PPDM.

Why would we want to obfuscate saves in this manner? Because it's cool, and we are smart enough to cope with it.

Die-hard Old Schooler here, but the problem with this is that those save categories were all but utterly unconcerned with being tied to a specific ability score. They were conceived simply according to the effect or the source of the effect.

Paralyzation/Poison/Death Magic for example, did not care if the paralyzation was from a monsters bite, being rooted to the spot with fear, or a noxious gas. The element it was concerned with was what it was trying to do. It did not then modify that saving throw at all based on Con, or Str, or anything else. Poison, of course was modified according to Con if you were, say, a dwarf or halfling, but that modifier applied strictly to POISON, it didn't modify the entire PPD category.

2nd Edition actually went just a little further in explaining what each category represented beyond the listed effects and suggested what other effects ought to apply to those categories. Save categories were then listed in order of importance and you would use the first category that applied to the effect being used. A wand of paralyzation, for example, could be PPD or Rod/Staff/Wand, but since PPD came first in the hierarchy that was the category that applied. It also SUPERFICIALLY associated categories with ability scores. For example, Breath Weapon was said to be reflective of dodging out of the way of the effect, thus also useful for similar situations of escape-by-movement such as avoiding trap effects. That IMPLIED a connection to Dexterity, yet not only did it not then give modifiers FOR having a high dexterity, but Thief characters - unarguably oriented around having high dexterity - had the most abominably low Breath Weapon saves in the game.

There were also simply VERY few modifiers to saves, which overwhelmingly made them about your characters level and class - and not much else. Oh, and Spell was a catch-all category long before 2E specifically said that's what it was supposed to be. Have a spell or effect that doesn't specifically fit a category? Save vs. spell. Wierd trap? Save vs. spell. Can I do this or that Mr. DM? Save vs. spell. Did my mother like me or hate me as a child? Save vs. spell. Can I find something to eat before I starve? Save vs. spell. Does this shoe fit me? Save vs. spell. The point being that you CANNOT assign any one ability score to the Spell category because it covers anything and everything under the sun simply because it HASN'T been specifically covered by another category.

It is an entirely different model to organize saves according to an applicable ability score (with attending modifiers by the bushel) than by the source & effect categories given in 1E/2E (with few modifiers at all). It's NOT just the naming. If it were then the way it would be applicable is by the name "Saving Throw". The very term comes from wargames predating the RPG. The idea is that it's not an integral part of determining most effects. You stand in the radius of the fire YOU ARE BURNED, end of story. The Saving Throw is your last-ditch opportunity to literally SAVE yourself from all or some of those otherwise inevitable effects. Nowadays it is seen as simply an externalized mechanic for describing the way magic even functions. Old School says an escape from death and damage is just because your high-level fighter is a lucky S.O.B., is blessed by the gods, and is better at tuck-and-roll than anyone else. New School says your fighter saves because level, class, abiltiy scores, protective items, race, and many more adjustments all explain how the magic or traps even work to begin with.
 
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I think naming them might help clarify their meaning rather than obfuscate it.
I would not use the old-school ones though, I would use more generic terms.

Perhaps something like:
Str-Vigor
Dex-Reflex
Con-Fortitude
Int-Reason
Wis-Insight
Cha-Will

(just suggestions)
 

Constitution: Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic
Intelligence: Rod, Staff, or Wand
Strength: Petrification or Polymorph
Dexterity: Breath Weapon
Wisdom: Spell
Charisma: Fear*
This isn't bad and an easy way to incorporate more diversity back into the game. There were actually a whole lot more save types grouped under the Big 5, but they could still be placed under stats, if you wanted.

Saving Throws were for every single different kind of save possible. They weren't grouped together to confuse people. They were simply on different progression tracks for different classes (with racial modifiers) to simplify the numerous saves in the game. This way we didn't need a track for every single one. Five was complex enough without going overboard. When your DM house ruled a new one, he or she simply placed it in the best progression as fit the design.

So what the saves were categorized under were Effects. Poison was an effect. So was Paralyzation. That they fell under the same save progression column was incidental. You could actually reassign the quoted ones above as you best see fit for your game.

Having many, many, many effects allowed for a very diverse environment that could effect you in many ways. And, of course, this doubled into the magic system, which was the arcane study of creating these effects anyways. Half of Magic-Users game play is finding new effects in the world and saying, "Now how do I do that? ...steal that... borrow that... etc." By allowing for even more effects to be created, and placed under the saving throw progressions, we could have an unlimited game again. This removes the binds of DMs (and player suggestions) from requiring them to fit everything in the preexisting game.

My main concern with Saving Throws is they don't progress anymore, so characters don't get better at them as they increase in class levels. This makes environmental equally difficult regardless of level, which isn't necessary. Instead, it's solely one's ability scores, something harder to change, that determine success. I could see one or the other influencing rolls, but I thought separate Saving Throws weren't exactly that complicated to track. Depending upon the final product I might just have to house rule them in for enabling growth out of environments and other reasons.
 

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