D&D General Converting AD&D saving throws to stat-based saves

[James Gasik]

A lot of people didn't even know that saves were on a hierarchy; I can't even remember being asked to make certain saves ever. It was almost always poison or spells, even when another one would apply. It was kind of weird how many DM's I encountered never seemed to read the rulebooks, and if you bring up a rule, they say no such rule exists. You show them the rule, they call you a "rules lawyer".

And heaven help you if you're the DM and you apply a rule that someone had never heard of, lol.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Is that consistent for all the classes? That’s cool, I never noticed that!

Yes, I believe so.

With my homebrew, I initially cut the saves to:

• Poison / Death (Immediately ending life by abruptly stopping life processes)
• Transformation (Changing the body into a useless albeit "living" state)
• Breath Weapon / Blast (As it says, and tech effects often used this save)
• Magic (As it says, but effects coming from items save at +2, unless otherwise stated)

Looking at how the classes saved in AD&D, I gave the following bonuses:

• Cleric +2 Poison/Death
• Fighter +1 All
• Wizard +2 Magic
• Thief +2 Breath / Blast
• Paladin +3 All

&c.

Level + Class Bonus with a TN 18 replicated the save tables rather well, or at very least quite close enough.

I remember that fighters had the best saves overall, particularly at high levels. The wizards were best at spells, clerics at poison, but fighters were #2 in everything, and best at Transformation, I think. A dwarf cleric with an 18 Constitution was pretty close to immune to poison at 6th level, needing a 7+ to save at 1st level, I believe.

These days I just use Level + 3 TN 18; that's much easier and also quite close enough.

Now, to answer the OP question, if I was looking to tie an attribute to a save, I think I would also do pairs as I like the idea of clerics being adept at resisting death magic and being divinely protected from poisons and diseases. No one was great at transformation saves, but fighters were the best. Breath / Blast you need to get out of the way or recognize what's coming. Magic was more inner will than anything else, and wizards were best regardless of the type of spell (as long as it wasn't a different save catagory).

• Poison / Death: WIS or CON
• Transformation: STR or CON
• Breath Weapon / Blast: INT or DEX
• Magic: INT or CHA

 

[Baron Opal II]

Though sometimes it's used in weird places; the 2e Ranger's ability to calm animals requires a save vs. rods for no real reason other than...somebody thought it was a save that needed to be made more often?

It was a save vs. "weak magic", that's usually when that category was used. Also some tech, IIRC (Barrier Peaks). Those tended to avoid Spells saving throws, and looked to Poison/Death (the hardest save, in general), Breath Weapon (dodging), and RSW (save from items).

 

[ilgatto]

So this is applicable to 5E, Castles & Crusades, Shadowdark and other D&D-related games that use stat-based saves.

AD&D (and its retro-clones) use the following saving throws:

1. Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
2. Petrification or Polymorph
3. Rod, Staff or Wand
4. Breath Weapon
5. Spell

So we have five save types verus six stats. And, worse, they don't break down evenly. At a glance, both Breath Weapon and Petrification saves should probably both use Dexterity, for instance. Poison/Death Magic sounds like Constitution. And why are Rod/Staff/Wand and Spells different save types?

The easiest way to convert these for newer game systems would be if there was a one to one correspondence, but that doesn't seem realistic. The other obvious way would be to adjudicate each of these on the fly (and take notes on it for next time) when there's not an equivalent ability in the newer version.

Of the many things I would like to take a time machine to talk 1970s TSR folks out of, how saving throws work is a big one.

How would you all do it?

Ye Gods! That is quite a question and s-o-o-o-o-o-o right about the time machine!

Anyway. I think I can at least partially explain why there's a difference between Rods, Staff/Staves, and Wands, for OD&D Volume 2 Monsters & Treasures states (p. 34):

"Wands are considered as being endowed with projectiles (or rays) of the 6th level (six dice of damage), Staves have 8th level effect. (...). Of course, certain Wands and Staves would not be subject to the above, i.e. Metal Detection, Enemy Detection, Secret Doors & Traps Detection, Healing, Snake Staff, Staff of Striking."

So I suppose that would make saving throw vs. Wands DEX based.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So at the Little Brown Books stage, wands were considered to be pistols, essentially, which makes sense at that point, when they were still in a Chainmail mindset.

 

[Baron Opal II]

So at the Little Brown Books stage, wands were considered to be pistols, essentially, which makes sense at that point, when they were still in a Chainmail mindset.

I believe Murylund's six-shooters were explicitly re-skinned wands of magic missile.

 

[ilgatto]

So at the Little Brown Books stage, wands were considered to be pistols, essentially, which makes sense at that point, when they were still in a Chainmail mindset.

Heh, you don't say.

Dragon 71, p. 21:
"As noted, Murlynd is prone to carry technological weapons (variously called
“45s”, “six shooters”, and “hog legs”) which he is able to employ in both his left and right hands. His special aura enables these devices to function even on Oerth, for instance. Each weapon sends forth three missiles per round, if he so desires. These projectiles will strike even the most powerful of magical creatures and inflict 2-8 points of damage when they hit. The range of these arcane weapons is the same as the range of a light crossbow."

However, this does beg the question what the saving throw against Murlynd's flame thrower would be:

Dragon 71, p. 21:
"He is known to have cast burning hands in such a way that he made a device which spewed forth liquid fire (...)"

Anyway, I digress.
Since wands were seen as six-shooters in OD&D and "staves" apparently not, it sort of makes sense to have different saving throws for wands and "staves". Consequently, when the rods appeared in the Greyhawk supplement, I suppose it only stands to reason that they had to have different saving throws as well.

Although I assume the first rods one had to save against actually only generated charm-based affects, I'm not quite sure what all of this means for converting STs to stat saves.

 

[ilgatto]

I believe Murylund's six-shooters were explicitly re-skinned wands of magic missile.

Phew! That was close!

 

[James Gasik]

I believe Murylund's six-shooters were explicitly re-skinned wands of magic missile.

During the Voyage of the Princess Ark the main character once got called out to a duel at high noon. He brought a Wand of Lightning.

 

[Andvari]

The Rules Cyclopedia, for BECM(I) offers the following variant rule:

In the standard rules, the only ability score that can affect a saving throw is Wisdom (affects saving throws vs. spells). The DM does, however, have the option to apply ability score bonuses and penalties to other saving throws:

Strength: Modifies saving throws vs. paralysis and turn to stone.
Intelligence*: Modifies saving throws vs. mind attacks (charm, confusion, control, fear, feeblemind, sleep, etc.).
Wisdom*: Modifies saving throws vs. spells.
Dexterity: Modifies saving throws vs. wands and dragon breath.
Constitution: Modifies saving throws vs. poison (but not vs. death ray).
Charisma: No bonus to saving throws.

* Combined modifier cannot exceed +/-3.

The save types are

• Death Ray/Poison
• Magic Wands
• Paralysis/Turn to Stone
• Breath Attack
• Rod/Staff/Spell