Narrativism can be old-school

[Desdichado]

[MENTION=6672709]imurphy943[/MENTION] storytelling games didn't even exist in the hobby until White Wolf in 1990. We can rewrite history to follow a narrow contemporary theory, but none of that is going to make any of the Forge's GNS "old school". That Narrativism could be made so is just another attempt to paint over what old school RPGs already are. My advice is: quit treating everything as a story. It smacks of reductionism and is a disservice to literature as well as RPGs.

I think you mean the Storyteller™ System didn't exist in the hobby until White Wolf in 1990.

If you mean that the paradigm of gaming that was story-centered didn't exist until them, you'd be dead wrong. Also, if you think that the rules mandate a non-story centric game before 1990 or so, you'd also be dead wrong.

I mean, really, really dead wrong. So wrong that the only way you could possibly be that wrong is if you're desperately trying to rewrite history to favor your point of view wrong. Please try not to reduce this thread to another battleground in the playstyle wars, if you please.

 

[Yora]

Wasn't that what Dave Arneson introduced to make Wargames become Roleplaying Games, as we understand them today?

 

[Desdichado]

Wasn't that what Dave Arneson introduced to make Wargames become Roleplaying Games, as we understand them today?

Depending on the level of semantic nitpicking you can tolerate, then the answer is a qualified yes.

 

[ExploderWizard]

This seems extremely similar to the concept of heroism in real life. You only do it if you are an idiot, OR if you believe that you will be rewarded after death.

Wha?

There are all kinds of reasons for real life heroism. Firefighters are either religious zealots or idiots? Nope. You don't get it.

 

[imurphy943]

Wha?

There are all kinds of reasons for real life heroism. Firefighters are either religious zealots or idiots? Nope. You don't get it.

I never said religion. I think that heroes don't necessarily believe in any religion, they do what they do because it's right, or because they want to be remembered after death. There are firefighters who are only in it for the pay, and there isn't anything wrong with that, but it doesn't feel like heroism.

Gamism teaches that players like to face, and hopefully defeat, challenges that challenge them as players, rather than merely challenging their characters. Gamism is the motivation for playing games - chess, monopoly, poker, and D&D-as-game.

What would you count Monty Haul gamers as? I view Gamism more as viewing the game as a game, which probably does mean a slightly larger percentage of for-challenge gamers, but challenge should be able to benefit any point of view (Gamism and Narrativism slightly more than Simulationism).

[MENTION=6667844]eve[/MENTION]ryone: wasn't trying to start a war here. I was pointing out, as someone who considers himself a hardcore for-challenge retro-stupid west marches fan Gamist, that Narrativism does not mean forced hack writing.

[MENTION=37668]sinecure[/MENTION]: Every time some OSR blog points out that story develops on its own, that is an appreciation of Narrativism. That's what I'm talking about. There are all kinds of stories. There's Star Wars, Time Bandits, Conan, Little Red Riding Hood, The Cat in the Hat, Lord of the Rings, The Importance of Being Earnest, and That One Time You Tried To Open A Ketchup Packet With Your Teeth And Accidentally Squirted It Up Your Nose In Front Of Your Girlfriend. If you can tell a series of events, you can tell a story.