"Narrativist" 9-point alignment

pemerton

Legend
The idea for this post came out of a discussion on another thread. The post makes a suggestion as to what the focus of play should be in a game using 9-point alignment to explore moral/political themes.

First, I need to present a take on 9-point alignment, based on a fairly close reading of the 1st ed AD&D rulebooks (supplemented a little bit by the 3E SRD).

In the 9-point scheme, good is about fostering human wellbeing, and also beauty. When it comes to wellbeing, Gygax doesn't distinguish between economistic conceptions of welfare, happiness, rights and dignity. This means that there is scope for disagreement over what is truly good, but the alignment framework doesn't shed any light on this disagreement, nor help set it up as any sort of focus for play.

Evil, on the other hand, is the disregard of (others') wellbeing, and of beauty, even the scorning of these things. As Gygax puts it, for the evil person "purpose is the determinant": the evil person do whatever is required in the pursuit of self-interest, and does not recognise the rights and wellbeing of others as any sort of limit to his/her will.

I think it's fairly clear that, within alignment as set out in Gygax's rulebooks "evil" is not a distinct moral outlook, but rather a failure to take the demands of morality seriously. Which means that good vs evil is not a particularly suitable focus for exploration within this scheme, as it already provides the answer: evil is evil, and the proper thing to do is to pursue those human values, plus beauty, that constitute the good.

Law and chaos are considerably harder to pin down in Gygax's scheme, because he doesn't deal with what has been the most contentious issue in modern debates around institutional design, namely, what is the role of freedom and "invisible hand" mechanisms in generating effective systems of social order? But as I'll explain that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Turning now to the focus of moral exploration within this framework: it's law vs chaos.

Roughly, the LG are those who believe that social order will foster welfare and beauty (and accept at least some interpersonal trade-offs); the CG are those believe that individual self-realisation is the best way to foster welfare and beauty (and are more doubtful about interpersonal trade-offs, although clearly think that individuals owe duties of forbearance to one another). The 9-point alignment system frames this as an interesting and viable focus of exploration, to be worked out through play. The fact that "law" and "chaos" are quite loose in their characterisations is a help rather than a hindrance for these purposes.

The other alignments then label positions that are relevant to this question of law vs chaos as the foundation of wellbeing and beauty.

LN, as I read Gygax's alignment descriptions, is rules fetishism. Hence, it's a type of moral failing of the LG: the conviction that wellbeing can be maximised by social order gets corrupted into an obsession with order for its own sake. It's the vice of bureacrats. Because LN people pursue and practice order in a way that severs its connection to wellbeing, they are ultimately a cause of human misery. But they are not evil, because they are not just pursuing self-interest. Even the chief bureaucrat is pursuing something external to him/her, which s/he accepts as a limit to his/her will, and hence is not evil. It's just that the thing s/he's pursuing is not wellbeing - it's social organisation per se. So s/he's making people miserable, but not because s/he's evil.

The LE,on the other hand, are those for whom purpose is the determinant, and think the best way for them and their friends to get what they want is via social hierarchies with them at the top.

In this law vs chaos campaign, the CG point to the LN as showing that law is an impediment to good, and to the LE as displaying the true face of order and hierarchy: a source of domination which prevents those who are dominated from realising wellbeing.

But the existence of the LN and LE doesn't settle the conflict in favour of CG, because there are vices on the chaotic side too. The CE are those who favour individual self-aggrandisement above all - they are willing and lusty participants in a Hobbesian war of all against all. The LG point to the CE as showing the true consequences of individualism - an unwillingness or even ability to recognise that others are a source of duty and constraint.

CN is freedom-fetishism. It's distinct from CE, because the CN recognises others as a limit to his/her will - their freedom, too, has value. But the CN people doesn't properly honour the duties owed to others (eg in virtue of those others' rights). CN is a failing of the CG.

This also brings out that the CG are slightly more lawful than the CN: they at least acknowledge duties owed by one individual to another, which is a type of minimal sociality/order. And the LG can point to this in arguing against the CG. (I think there is a lack of grid symmetry here - whereas CG is more lawful than CN, which implies that CN is more chaotic than CG, and CE yet more chaotic than CN, there is nothing like this on the other side of the grid. LG, LN and LE are all equally lawful, in that all are about social organisation. They just favour different approaches to organisation.)

When alignment is approach in this way, I don't think that NG and NE are very interesting. NG is basically CG-lite - they are the individualists who are a little more tolerant of the odd bit of social order. And NE are pretty hard to tell from CE, as they also seek their own self-interest without regard for others, and don't see social hierarchies as particularly important for doing that.

Finally we get the True Neutrals. These are believers in the importance of balance and harmony. They favour nature over artifice. In terms of real-world intellectual tradition, Stoics and some strands of Taoism and Zen are the models. There is a risk of overlap between TN and CG, because the rejection of artifice and the pursuit of self-realisation can look pretty similar.

Still, in the law vs chaos campaign the True Neutral are observers who sit outside the conviction that human choices can make a difference to human welfare or the creation of beauty. They probably work better as NPCs than PCs, because they don't have a stake in answering the question that would drive this campaign, namely, is it social order or self-realisation that will produce human happiness.

I have no idea if this has any connection to what Gygax had in mind in writing up 9-point alignment, but I think it could be an interesting campaign.

I've never quite tried this in a game, though I've come close in two games. In one, the PCs ended up rejecting the divine order of the cosmos, on the grounds that it was causing human misery rather than human wellbeing; but they didn't move to self-realisation as the alternative, but rather established their own, superior, social and ultimately cosmological order. In the other - my current 4e game - the issue of divine order has come up again, but its primordial chaos/change vs divine order/stasis that is the conflict, rather than social order vs self-realisation.

The bottom line, in my view, is that an alignment system with good and evil alignments has already answered the question of what the ultimate goal of human striving should be. So all the action is over the suitability of means. Law vs chaos is a conflict over those means: social order vs self-realisation.
 

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pemerton said:
In the 9-point scheme, good is about fostering human wellbeing, and also beauty. When it comes to wellbeing, Gygax doesn't distinguish between economistic conceptions of welfare, happiness, rights and dignity. This means that there is scope for disagreement over what is truly good, but the alignment framework doesn't shed any light on this disagreement, nor help set it up as any sort of focus for play.
I found this to be the most interesting part of your musings :) "What is good?" is a legitimate question for a character to ask, because we could be talking about greatest good for the greatest number, gross national happiness, rights and dignity, etc. I'd always thought D&D embraced a more absolute morality, but the way you describe it, Gygax's didn't pin down what sense D&D refers to well-being, which is more indicative of a grayscale morality than a black and white morality.
 

"What is good?" is a legitimate question for a character to ask, because we could be talking about greatest good for the greatest number, gross national happiness, rights and dignity, etc. I'd always thought D&D embraced a more absolute morality, but the way you describe it, Gygax's didn't pin down what sense D&D refers to well-being, which is more indicative of a grayscale morality than a black and white morality.
First, just for clarity: we are fully agreed that Gygax doesn't pin down what is good. In the description of LG, for instance, the PHB talks about the "common weal" and says that "the benefits of this society are to be brought to all", whereas the DMG says that, for LG, "good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest." So even within LG there is scope for differences of opinion between Sen/Nussbuam "capacity" advocates, Rawlsian "justice as fairness" types, and classical Benthamites.

Now turning to the real point:

I think a character can meaningfully ask, What is Good? But if you wanted a campaign focused on the sort of moral/political disagreement I just described, I don't think the alignment system is going to help you. It has no label, for instance, to capture these differences of opinion. Using the ordinary language of morality, a Rawlsian regards a Benthamite as immoral, because willing to allow impermissible interpersonal trade-offs; but a Benthamite isn't evil in the sense that the alignment system uses that word - s/he is not someone for whom purpose is the determinant. (In alignment debates, you often see posters say that anyone who thinks the only constraint on means is that they serve the desired end is evil, but this is not how Gygax characterises evil. Not all thorough-going consequentialists are pursuing just their own self-interest.)

Within the language of 9-point alignment, where I think you do get interesting debates about the nature of the good is where that relates to law vs chaos. For instance, as I said in my OP, chaotic good people are going to be more sceptical of interpersonal trade-offs than the LG. So you could imagine a CG person arguing that the LG is allowing dignity or true happiness to be undermined, by letting people's own plans of life and self-conceptions be distorted or overridden by social constraints.

So that's how I would see the "what is good" question fitting into my narrativist 9-point alignment framework!
 

The AD&D nine-point alignment system seems like it was a bit of a work-in-progress, at least as it was presented across the three core volumes. The Monster Manual seems to have been written with the five-point system that EGG presented in SR #6. Notice that the intermediate alignments, NG, NE, LN, and CN, are not present in any of the monster descriptions. Nine-point alignment showed up in the Players Handbook, but seems to lack the maturity of the description in the DMG, at least that's the one I prefer.

Based on the DMG, my take on alignment differs slightly from the nuanced reading you've presented above. My understanding is that all creatures essentially want what's "good" for themselves and, possibly, also for a group of associated creatures to which they conceive themselves as belonging. They want to prosper and have a degree of what we'd call "well-being" or "success". With that assumption in mind, the two axes can be defined as follows:

Law-Chaos is about group identification or the lack thereof. Chaotic individuals are self-interested and seek benefit for themselves above all else. If they belong to a group, they maintain a certain amount of independence from it, seeing to their own interests first. Lawful individuals, on the other hand, seek to promote the well-being of the group as a whole, gaining benefit thereby as part of the group, and in extreme cases making personal sacrifices to benefit the group.

Good-Evil has to do with belief in the rights of other individuals and groups. Good creatures will uphold the rights of others, sometimes at cost to themselves, while those who are Evil won't let those rights get in the way of getting what they want. I think this narrower definition of Good moves the alignment system away from being prescriptive, or judgmental, of any particular outlook, and towards being descriptive of a creature's actual behavior.
 

Law-Chaos is about group identification or the lack thereof.

<snip>

Good-Evil has to do with belief in the rights of other individuals and groups. Good creatures will uphold the rights of others
I can't comment on what Gygax had in mind, or how he personally implemented the alignment system - and, as you say, it changes over time and therefore across books.

But just focusing on the text, I have two reasons for favouring the approach I put forward in the OP.

First, Gygax doesn't say that good is about rights. For instance, the DMG definition of LG uses a Benthamite notion of wellbeing, not a rights-based one ("the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest"). Also, both beauty and truth (which I left out of my OP, by error not design) are values that are part of the good, although not connected to rights.

Second, the text for LG and CG fairly strongly emphasises law and chaos as competing means to the realisation of the good. From the DMG again, LG people "are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good", while the CG see "freedom as the only means by which each creature con achieve true satisfaction and happiness."

Similarly, the PHB says that the LG "follow these precepts [of law and order] to improve the common weal"; on CG it is a bit less clear.

The evil similarly have different views about means: the LE think that social hierarchies are their best ways of getting what they want, while the CE prefer rampant individualism. They see law and chaos as means, but differ on their utility (stereotypically, the LE are weaker, snivelling and toadying; while the CE are stronger, brash and violent: think goblins or kobolds vs bugbears or ogres).

These two textual reasons then lead to a third reason, which was what inspired the thread: I think the approach I'm putting forward, which places LG and CG at odds on the relationship between means and ends, raises an interesting and viable question for game play! Who is right? The LG or the CG?

Whereas I think there is a tendency, in some more "taxonomic" approaches to alignment (PS would be one, 3E another), to treat the difference between LG and CG as one of temperament: the LG prefer order for themselves, the CG prefer freedom for themselves. (It's true that there are hints of this in Gygax, too - the LGness of dwarves and the CGness of elves looks like a difference of temperament rather than of socio-political conviction.) On this account, why would LG and CG come into deep conflict? - the LG can go of and build their cities and governments, while the CG can go and swan around in the woods and fields. Of course the cities and government might try and colonise the woods and fields, but that then becomes an issue of good vs evil (the cities and governments are not respecting the rights and happiness of the wood-dwellers) rather than law vs chaos.

Anyway, that's a bit more about the reasoning behind my presentation of 9-point alignment.
 

The bottom line, in my view, is that an alignment system with good and evil alignments has already answered the question of what the ultimate goal of human striving should be. So all the action is over the suitability of means. Law vs chaos is a conflict over those means: social order vs self-realisation.

Might have a bit more later if I have time, but I think I agree with you here. Or, at the very least, I think I agree that is where the most interesting potential action lies as a narrativist vessel.

A nar game with the theme of positive liberty versus negative liberty (such as the myriad issues of material akin to the American Revolution and the Civil War or Teddy through FDR), and the means for the resolution mechanics to actually allow the two sides to compete without GM as sole arbiter of outcome legitimacy, would probably be quite fun. I think it would need be much more contained and thematically focused though. D&D's historical alignment system and resolution mechanics certainly don't serve that end.

A 5e game where everyone buys in solely to this premise (at the build and theme level) and Inspiration is rewarded by table consensus when someone properly provokes/represents/resolves an issue might be a reasonable (but not wholly sufficient) start.
 

I think your recognition that CG and LG are in opposition regarding the means to an end is correct, but that you are giving short shrift to the debate between good and evil because you are improperly assuming you conclusion.

A decent intro to the debate say LG and LE are having might be seen in the end of Asimov's 'Foundation and Earth', in which the question becomes in the name of serving the greatest interest of humanity, can the self-appointed guardians of humanity (the highly advanced AI's) take steps which individual humans and perhaps even the majority of humans might find abhorrent and contrary to their wishes. Ultimately, the AI's are given permission to embark upon their plans to subjugate all human free will and to manipulate humanity into becoming components in a single super-organism led by the AI's because the plan is deemed necessary to protect humanity from the possibility of eventual extinction by any extra-galactic intelligence which has made the same choice because the superorganism where each individual's will is made subordinate to the greater whole is deemed to be more survivable and potent than any competing organism. Or in other words, so long as the entire universe is not assimilated, so long as the possibility of conflict between the The Group and The Other exists, the weal and happiness of the group is less important than its survival since by definition the extinction of the group or equivalent catastrophe would be the greatest unhappiness that could befall it. Evil sees good as naively choosing short term happiness over actual health - that is strength and capacity to enforce your will on others and resist their will.

While the robots in the discussion don't see themselves as advocating for evil, and indeed are not discounting happiness and health in their calculations, it's pretty easy to see that their argument would ultimately end up trading any amount of happiness for any amount of strength. Lawful evil societies simply take this argument to its logical conclusion, not as an emergency response (by which point it might be too late), but as the desirable pervading state of existence.

And there are many other points of contention, not the least of which is the ultimate point of continuation between good and evil - should existence, intelligence, community, and life be allowed to continue in the first place? It's nice to imagine that everyone has as their original position the notion that they should, but its not at all clear that everyone is 'rational' in that sense and certainly it is clear that not everyone perceives everyone else as having that position.
 

Gygax doesn't say that good is about rights. For instance, the DMG definition of LG uses a Benthamite notion of wellbeing, not a rights-based one ("the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest").

Yes, but this is good seen through the prism of law. Back up to the top of that column to see what EGG has to say about good in general.

DMG said:
Good And Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of AD&D, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant.

That looks to be all about rights, even the part about evil. EGG is talking about the right to life, and the right to be free, especially from cruelty and suffering, and the right to pursue one's own happiness. The reason that "purpose" is the only decisive factor for evil is that it disregards all of these rights. It's not like good doesn't have purpose too.

The lawful good definition of good is actually kind of circular; good is "whatever brings the most benefit", i.e. the most good, "to the greatest number". I think this is just emphasizing the trade-of that lawful good sees as inevitable in protecting most rights at the expense of some others.

Also, both beauty and truth (which I left out of my OP, by error not design) are values that are part of the good, although not connected to rights.

These could also be conceived of as rights. The right to know the truth or to be free from that which is offensive, for example. I can't actually find these values of goodness in my DMG, not a critique, just an observation.


Second, the text for LG and CG fairly strongly emphasises law and chaos as competing means to the realisation of the good. From the DMG again, LG people "are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good", while the CG see "freedom as the only means by which each creature can achieve true satisfaction and happiness."

I agree that the tension between LG and CG is a great area to explore the effectiveness of the two approaches to the pursuit of well-being. I'm just not convinced that the good alignments have a corner on the market considering, for example, NE's contention that "seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving."
 

Yes, but this is good seen through the prism of law. Back up to the top of that column to see what EGG has to say about good in general.
For my purposes - that is, outlining a feasible scheme for narrativist play based on 9-point alignment - I think it is more helpful to look at all the definitions, and from those to construct a general notion of good. I think the focus on rights in the abstract account of good is therefore only one part of the overall picture that is painted: I think the general notion in play is wellbeing, with Benthamite/hedonistic, rights-based, dignity-based, autonomy-based ("self-realisation", DMG p 22) ideas of wellbeing all falling under the broad umbrella of good.

The lawful good definition of good is actually kind of circular; good is "whatever brings the most benefit", i.e. the most good, "to the greatest number". I think this is just emphasizing the trade-of that lawful good sees as inevitable in protecting most rights at the expense of some others.
The PHB, p 33, says that the LG aim "to improve the common weal." To me that sounds less like rights-maximisation and more like increasing aggregate welfare, just as the Benthamite formula suggests.

These could also be conceived of as rights. The right to know the truth or to be free from that which is offensive, for example. I can't actually find these values of goodness in my DMG, not a critique, just an observation.
I think your approach instrumentalises truth and beauty; whereas Gygax says that, for the LG, "truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance" (PHB p 33; the same page tells us that "life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless" by the LE, "or at least scorned").

I'm just not convinced that the good alignments have a corner on the market considering, for example, NE's contention that "seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving."
There are certainly strong meritocratic views out there which would reject the idea that goodness consists in universal wellbeing, or that everyone is entitled to rights and the prospects of happiness. Historically, those sorts of views were associated with the justifications of slavery and of aristocracy. Today they have different connotations, which in light of board rules I will leave as an exercise for the reader!

But I think once you set up a framework that defines good and evil, you've settled the question as to what the proper end of human striving is. If we want the sort of radically anti-egalitarian meritocracy that NE advocates to be on the table as a candidate for moral truth in our game, then we shouldn't start by labelling it evil. Whereas what I'm trying to do is outline an approach to alignment that accepts 9-point alignment as a starting point, including the fact that NE has been labelled as evil and hence already has its moral character settled.

you are giving short shrift to the debate between good and evil because you are improperly assuming you conclusion.

<snip>

While the robots in the discussion don't see themselves as advocating for evil, and indeed are not discounting happiness and health in their calculations, it's pretty easy to see that their argument would ultimately end up trading any amount of happiness for any amount of strength. Lawful evil societies simply take this argument to its logical conclusion, not as an emergency response (by which point it might be too late), but as the desirable pervading state of existence.
I'm not 100% sure how to take this - I can see two slightly different readings, and so will respond to each.

If the point is that some people might think that the aspirations of LE are in fact desirable (maybe the classical Spartans, or at least a certain stereotyped conception, would be an instance?), and hence will disagree that goodness as defined above (by me, drawing on Gygax) exhausts the permissible ends of human striving, then I agree. But for the reasons I just stated to Hriston, I don't think that you can raise this question within a framework that has already defined those ends as evil. A campaign that explores whether or not "rights" are mere sentimentality that get in the way of effective government could be fun, but you wouldn't use the 9-point alignment system to tackle it, given that it already tells you that respecting rights is not only non-sentimental but is in fact a mark of being a good person.

If the point is that some behaviour is challenging to identify as good or evil because these notions are vague, and the characterisations are relatively simplistic relative to the complexities of real-world situations and motivations, that's true too. But I don't think the question "Should we label this as good or evil?" makes for very productive play. It's sounds rather taxonomic, and if (some of) the players disagree with the GM, it can be a recipe for game-ending arguments. In the campaign framework I am suggesting in my OP, I am assuming that the sorts of consequences that are the focus of play will be fairly readily identifiable as instances of, or failures of, wellbeing. And hence that the question about the efficacy of means will be thrown into sharp relief.
 

A nar game with the theme of positive liberty versus negative liberty (such as the myriad issues of material akin to the American Revolution and the Civil War or Teddy through FDR), and the means for the resolution mechanics to actually allow the two sides to compete without GM as sole arbiter of outcome legitimacy, would probably be quite fun. I think it would need be much more contained and thematically focused though. D&D's historical alignment system and resolution mechanics certainly don't serve that end.

A 5e game where everyone buys in solely to this premise (at the build and theme level) and Inspiration is rewarded by table consensus when someone properly provokes/represents/resolves an issue might be a reasonable (but not wholly sufficient) start.
You hardcore narrativists never have much sympathy for we humble vanilla narrativists!

I think you're right that resolution mechanics would need to be robust, but (given my vanilla proclivities) I don't think the mechanics in question have to involve the sort of reward-for-theme you describe with Inspiration (though nor would your suggestion do any harm!). I'm envisaging a game in which the GM throws out challenge that raise the whole question of wellbeing in connection to social order or its absence, and the players (via their PCs) make action declarations whose resolution pushes things one way or another, both towards or away from wellbeing, and with or without respect for social order.

The main mechanics that D&D has tended to lack, or be a bit wobbly on, that would be needed, are social mechanics. Though if you were doing this in 1st ed AD&D you could use the reaction and loyalty system, which is surprisingly detailed, but has the oddity that chances of player success are divorced from PC level (unlike combat and at least those parts of the exporation system that hang of spells and thieves' skills).

As far as D&D alignment mechanics are concerned, in the sort of game I'm envisaging they all have to be dropped. The mechanics, and even moreso the cosmology, and even moreso the cosmology as read through the lens of Planescape, tend to assume that both law and chaos are compatible with good (and so both Olympus and the Seven Heavens are equally good; and both a dwarf and an elf will register to Detect Good; etc), and hence to assume away the very conflict that I am positing as the focus of the game.

A unilateral GM power to change PC alignments based on the players' play of their characters would also be at odds with a narrativist game.

When I talk about using 9-point alignment I'm certainly talking about the descriptions, not the traditional mechanics.
 

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