Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

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Cameron said:
It contradicts the PHB only by *your* narrow interpretation of the rules, which you yourself admitted comes under the "reasonable inferrence" category.

Not just his, mind you.

Additionally, the PHB very clearly says that monks get their full strength bonus on attacks with their unarmed strikes. Heck, you can even read it online:

SRD said:
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

How you can possibly get from "full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes" to "half Strength bonus on damage rolls for some unarmed strikes" is beyond me.

Additionally,

Can't you see how arrogant you sound

You're really hitting the personal attack button a little too hard. You might want to back off of it a bit before additional moderator intervention is requested. Just some friendly advice ...
 

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Patryn of Elvenshae said:
You're really hitting the personal attack button a little too hard. You might want to back off of it a bit before additional moderator intervention is requested. Just some friendly advice ...
It was not a personal attack. Just a plea to tell him to stop acting as if he is the God and final arbiter of DnD rules. If you wish to view it as such, I can't stop you. However, in that case, I will also view the above quote as a snide personal attack.
 


Cameron said:
It contradicts the PHB only by *your* narrow interpretation of the rules, which you yourself admitted comes under the "reasonable inferrence" category.

For excluding kicks from dealing lethal damage with gauntlets. No inference is required for "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" to mean "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed".

And it contradicts the PHB by the interpretation you offered as well - that any unarmed strike made by a monk, whether off-hand or not, adds full Str bonus.

Can't you see how arrogant you sound by continuously pushing that your interpretation of the rules is the *only* correct and true interpretation of the rules? You are implicitly doing this every time you say the FAQ is wrong.

Not at all. I'm not suggesting all non-FAQ interpretations of the PHB text are incorrect; I'm only saying that the FAQ does not make a correct interpretation of the PHB text. I'm not generalising from that one case to infinity; you're doing that.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
For excluding kicks from dealing lethal damage with gauntlets. No inference is required for "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" to mean "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed".

Actually, that section almost certainly cannot be read to imply that it's impossible to make off-hand attacks. Notice that the flurry of blows does not say this, but the unarmed attack. Normal unarmed attacks (and certainly anyone using IUS) can use TWF. It's counterintuitive to suggest that the monk's "Unarmed Strike" class feature is actually a reduction in power since it forbids TWF. Reading that paragraph to mean that even when not using flurry, a monk cannot TWF is possible, but counterintuitive. The context of the line you quote is a description saying how a monk can even strike from elbows, knees and feet, and is illustrating the flexibility of the monk's unarmed strike as the reason a monk always gets full strength bonus. In other words, a monk can't make an off-hand attack not because he can't make an attack with his off-hand, but because there's nothing "off" about either hand :D. Cameron's inference that this means a monk can TWF with full STR bonus to off-hand attacks is thus far more logical than the inference that he is forbidden from doing any off-hand attacks.

The above discussion is independent of flurry, however, which is what the FAQ allows as well. That's the only questionable part here; can flurry of blows be combined with other attack-sequence enhancements such as TWF and natural weaponry, as the FAQ says?

The flurry text wasn't written with anything out-of-the-ordinary in mind (as so much of the PHB). It would be odd to not allow a monk to use natural attacks in addition to the normal iterative attacks when a fighter can use them in addition to a normal iterative attacks, but if you take small sections of the flurry's descriptive text and interpret them without context, that's definitely a logical conclusion. However, the text is trying to explain how the normal flurry of blows works, and in the normal case, there aren't any attacks outside the iterative set, and certainly no natural attacks. From the perspective from this normal case, it makes perfect sense to say that a flurry can only use monk special weapons.

Since the monk's rule text simply doesn't cover corner-cases at all, you'll need to infer your own interpretation. Does the rule which allows natural attacks in addition to iterative attacks take precedence, or does the flurry-blurb disallowing non-monk weapons take precedence? Can a monk TWF?

The FAQ's interpretation is particularly lenient, allowing a monk to combine everything in the most positve fashion. I can clearly image drawing the line far earlier, and if I had to come up with an interpretation on the fly by myself, I would choose a more conservative interpretation just to make sure I'm not allowing all kinds of unintended consequences. This discussion, however, has cleared up to me that allowing these extensions is not a game-balance issue, and with that important issue aside, going with the FAQ simply makes sense. You can try to make all kinds of rules, but the FAQ is the closest thing we have to designer intent at the moment, and I try to avoid all rules which contradict written rules unless there is some clear reason to do so.

There is no game-balance reason I can see to ban natural attacks and TWF from flurrying monks. There is no rule-intent clear in the blurb; on the contrary, the FAQ states the intent as best we can determine.

Without the FAQ, I would agree with you Hyp, and choose a conservative, minimal-impact ruling. With the FAQ (and realizing that more character options is a good thing), I can't help but lean the other way.
 

Hypersmurf said:
For excluding kicks from dealing lethal damage with gauntlets. No inference is required for "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" to mean "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed".

And it contradicts the PHB by the interpretation you offered as well - that any unarmed strike made by a monk, whether off-hand or not, adds full Str bonus.



Not at all. I'm not suggesting all non-FAQ interpretations of the PHB text are incorrect; I'm only saying that the FAQ does not make a correct interpretation of the PHB text. I'm not generalising from that one case to infinity; you're doing that.

-Hyp.
As Eamon have also noted, you are always excluding context in your attempt to prove yourself right. Thus, your stance is totally illogical in and of itself. The PHB does not preclude TWF with a Monk's unarmed strike. It does so *only* if you avoid the wider context and stick to a couple of lines in a 260+ page book. That is quite silly, IMO.

I am not suggesting that all non-FAQ interpretations is correct either. That is something that you made up. What I did say is that if there is a FAQ interpretation, then it is more valid than your interpretation. Once again, you are trying "creatively interprete" things in order to bolster your argument.
 

eamon said:
It's counterintuitive to suggest that the monk's "Unarmed Strike" class feature is actually a reduction in power since it forbids TWF. Reading that paragraph to mean that even when not using flurry, a monk cannot TWF is possible, but counterintuitive.

Do you feel that a Dervish, once he gains the class feature that states "The character treats scimitars as light weapons for all purposes", can gain a bonus to damage with a scimitar from Power Attack? Does he take a -4 on Sunder and Disarm checks?

-Hyp.
 

Cameron said:
I am not suggesting that all non-FAQ interpretations is correct either. That is something that you made up.

Hmm? No, I didn't.

I didn't say "Cameron says all non-FAQ interpretations are correct". I said "Cameron says Hyper says all non-Hyper interpretations are incorrect". I disagree that that's whay Hyper says - I've said I believe the FAQ to be incorrect, not that mine is the only valid reading.

What I did say is that if there is a FAQ interpretation, then it is more valid than your interpretation.

Not if it's wrong.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Hmm? No, I didn't.

I didn't say "Cameron says all non-FAQ interpretations are correct". I said "Cameron says Hyper says all non-Hyper interpretations are incorrect". I disagree that that's whay Hyper says - I've said I believe the FAQ to be incorrect, not that mine is the only valid reading.



Not if it's wrong.

-Hyp.
Again, that is something you made up. I have only ever said that "All Hyp's interpretations are incorrect *if he contradicts the FAQ*". A small omission on your part, but very, very important.

You are arguing that the FAQ is incorrect, which correlates directly to "I am correct, if you think otherwise you are wrong, since I put myself higher than even an official source". In other words, if an official source is not valid enough to say that you are wrong, *what is*?
 

Cameron said:
Again, that is something you made up. I have only ever said that "All Hyp's interpretations are incorrect *if he contradicts the FAQ*". A small omission on your part, but very, very important.

Hmm?

"Can't you see how arrogant you sound by continuously pushing that your interpretation of the rules is the *only* correct and true interpretation of the rules?"

You're saying "Hyp claims his interpretation is the only correct one".

I'm saying "No, I'm only claiming that the FAQ's interpretation is an incorrect one".

You are arguing that the FAQ is incorrect, which correlates directly to "I am correct, if you think otherwise you are wrong, since I put myself higher than even an official source". In other words, if an official source is not valid enough to say that you are wrong, *what is*?

I'm saying "If you think the FAQ is correct you are wrong, since the FAQ contradicts the PHB".

If the FAQ said, for example, "A medium longsword deals 1d10 damage", it would be in error, because it contradicts the PHB. When the FAQ says "There is such a thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed; thus, a monk's off-hand unarmed strikes add half Str bonus to damage", it's in error, because it contradicts the PHB.

-Hyp.
 

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