Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[eamon]

Are you aware of the fact that the D&D FAQ explicitely details a monk using TWF in great depth? There are several FAQ entries which pretty much all say the same thing in different wrapping; you may use unarmed strikes as off hand weapons; you may combine a flurry of blows with an off hand attack (and with TWF and variants), though the normal penalties do apply; you may even wield two different monk weapons in both hands, and still interleave various weapon strikes and unarmed strikes during your flurry and then follow up with unarmed off-hand attacks; you may NOT use the physically same weapon both as a primary and off-hand attack, meaning that if you use a monk weapon you may only do so as a flurry weapon OR as an off-hand weapon, not both, but this restriction does not limit the monk's unarmed attacks as those include kicks, knees and headbutts.

There are several (5-6?) FAQ entries, and I suggest reading them and their argumentation. One which is fairly simple however, is the following:

Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at 13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are you aware of the fact that the D&D FAQ explicitely details a monk using TWF in great depth?

Certainly. And I disagree with it on a few points. (Though I agree with it in the places where it contradicts itself on the points I disagree with.)

-Hyp.

 

[Baby Samurai]

18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multiattack and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +13

15 attacks per round.

 

[Caliban]

18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multiattack and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +13

15 attacks per round.

Pretty much all of which are going to miss anything you are going to fight at 18th level.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Pretty much all of which are going to miss anything you are going to fight at 18th level.

True, but that's an issue with the monk class.

And hopefully my little guy in the example would have more than a 10 Str and some goodies to up his attack bonus at that level.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

Pretty much all of which are going to miss anything you are going to fight at 18th level.

There's much to be said for beating up commoners to make you feel good about yourself.

 

[Baby Samurai]

There's much to be said for beating up commoners to make you feel good about yourself.

Exactly, sometimes we all need a little ego boost.

 

[Cameron]

Because you're attacking with your unarmed strike, but not making use of the gauntlet in so doing.

Just like I threaten with my shortsword even whilst wielding a whip in my other hand.

-Hyp.

Ahh... But a whip and a shortsword are two different weapons. By your logic, it doesn't matter if it is a kick or a punch, they are both the *same* weapon.

Now, my logic is simple: If they are the same weapon, you can't TWF with them. If they are different weapons, you can.

Which is it, in your opinion? There are no half measures.

And no, don't try to skirt around the issue anymore. Just pick one, and let us debate according to that instead of you changing your stance and the goalpost every other post.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is it, in your opinion? There are no half measures.

And no, don't try to skirt around the issue anymore. Just pick one, and let us debate according to that instead of you changing your stance and the goalpost every other post.

In my opinion? It's one weapon, which deals lethal damage if you use the gauntlet when you attack, and non-lethal damage if you don't.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

In my opinion? It's one weapon, which deals lethal damage if you use the gauntlet when you attack, and non-lethal damage if you don't.

-Hyp.

Uh-uh. One weapon means it deals damage as one weapon. Either lethal or not. Unless you are taking a -4 to your attack rolls to deal non-lethal, all your unarmed strikes deal lethal because of that gauntlet.

You can't have the properties of one weapon and two weapons on the same weapon. That is like saying 1 = 2. Doesn't wash.