D&D 5E Natural Weapons discrepancies?

[TiwazTyrsfist]

IMO 2 reasons:

1> Blah blah blah blah blee bloo blow blah blah

2> But seriously, My observation of 5e compared to AD&D 2nd, 3.x, and 4E is that in 5e they have DELIBERATELY and purposefully stepped away from having hard and fast system rules for anything Other Than PC abilities.

No rules for magic item creation. Scant rules for Spell, Creature, Race, Subrace, or Class Design. Those scant rules seem to often feature comments such as "So here's a ROUGH guide, but by all means Fudge it till it works."

Basically I think trying to figure out the "Secret R&D Formula to make these decisions" is a quest ending in madness because you're hunting for something that doesn't exist. These decisions were made on gut instinct and then tweeked during play til they worked in a way they liked.

 

[dave2008]

But they still use rules, even if only similar in certain ways. They aren't just pulling numbers out of the air.

You are also making a couple mistakes:
Neither monsters nor PCs add proficiency to damage.
All PCs get proficiency in 2 saves, not three. (A simply typo I hope?)

Finally, when monsters do have saves, they are still calculated the same way--using the same rule.

I never said monsters (or PCs) added proficiency to damage, when I used DMG it was an acronym for Dungeon Masters Guide. So now who's making mistakes

FYI, I don't disagree that they use a set of guidelines or rules, but they also freely break them too. Listen I like that in general the monsters are based on rules, it makes it easy to create my own. However, I also see they have given me the freedom to go outside those rules by there own examples.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Unless they're druids, or necromancers, or summoners, or have a familiar.

For summoning spells, the DM decides what creatures come. The whole point of this rule is so the players don't see the stat blocks.

 

[Olrox17]

For summoning spells, the DM decides what creatures come. The whole point of this rule is so the players don't see the stat blocks.

There’s a creature statistic section in the Phb, I think it’s fair to assume that some stat blocks are meant to be seen by the players.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I never said monsters (or PCs) added proficiency to damage, when I used DMG it was an acronym for Dungeon Masters Guide. So now who's making mistakes

LOL fair enough, but CR =/= level as we all know, they are different systems. It would have been better if they DID making comparison equivalent, but that is another issue.

FYI, I don't disagree that they use a set of guidelines or rules, but they also freely break them too. Listen I like that in general the monsters are based on rules, it makes it easy to create my own. However, I also see they have given me the freedom to go outside those rules by there own examples.

But that is the point. Are they going outside of the rules, or just using the rules when we don't know about the design decision? Or are they mistakes?

As you said, I agree it is best to assume the rules are being followed rigidly and things that seem "off" are mistakes. If I look up Ghast, I will assume the bite is in error just as the warhorse and riding horse were. With the wolf-types, the numbers work if you believe the bite is finesse allowing one wolf to choose DEX and the other STR. A section in the MM on natural weapon attacks having that property would have done a lot for our group. When we noticed the difference, we probably would have found such a write-up and avoided confusion.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For summoning spells, the DM decides what creatures come. The whole point of this rule is so the players don't see the stat blocks.

So I get to wild shape into something but can't compare their abilities (even after assuming their forms at least once) to know what their strengths and features are?

So I get to have a familiar but not know what it can do?

So I can have an animal companion and not know what it can do?

So I can find steed and not know what it can do?

So I can shapechange into things and not know what I can do?

I think you get the point. Players most certainly should be allowed to know/see certain stat blocks. Even if the DM was anal enough to not let them see them before summoning/changing into them, they should know them after the have used them and can retain their own records of what those creatures can do.

 

[dave2008]

LOL fair enough, but CR =/= level as we all know, they are different systems. It would have been better if they DID making comparison equivalent, but that is another issue.

I agree with that. Though there would still be issues without the tight math of 4e or PF2

But that is the point. Are they going outside of the rules, or just using the rules when we don't know about the design decision? Or are they mistakes?

I do understand your frustration. There is no way to know for sure if something is a mistake or intentionally deviates from the assumed guidelines.

Personally, I just don't worry about. If the monster works as is, great! If not, I change it. I don't really worry about the intent of the original designer or if it was a mistake or not or if it follows the DMG or any other guideline. I use what works for me as a DM.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Honestly, if you want my advice, as soon as a player starts a discussion about how they are getting hung up on something like this, I’d ask them how they feel about stealth rules, or how much of hit points represent meat.

that’d shift the conversation quickly . I mean, if you’re gonna bog down the game discussing things, is this issue really an issue? I don’t think there IS an answer other than “cuz that’s the way it works”. And it seems a pretty minor thing to get caught up in, especially considering other far more ambiguous things that exist. No offense, but if your table comes to a halt over this, I can only imagine how many other things bring the game to a halt

 

[DND_Reborn]

Honestly, if you want my advice, as soon as a player starts a discussion about how they are getting hung up on something like this, I’d ask them how they feel about stealth rules, or how much of hit points represent meat.

that’d shift the conversation quickly . I mean, if you’re gonna bog down the game discussing things, is this issue really an issue? I don’t think there IS an answer other than “cuz that’s the way it works”. And it seems a pretty minor thing to get caught up in, especially considering other far more ambiguous things that exist. No offense, but if your table comes to a halt over this, I can only imagine how many other things bring the game to a halt

Well, it became a discussion but it was only maybe a five minutes, if even that.

As for the other things, we've discussed a long time ago how stealth and hit points and other things work. This only came up because of the issues at the time when we noticed it (and hence my OP).