Natural Weapons, Hybrid form, AND TWF

[candidus_cogitens]

I'm sure this has been discussed on these boards somewhere before, but ...

If you've got a lycanthrope character in hybrid form, you can either get two claw attacks (primary) and a bite attack (secondary) OR you can attack with a weapon (primary) and a bite attack (secondary).

Okay, so could you use as your primary attack a weapon in one hand and an off-hand attack (with appropriate penalties)?

If you want to use your claw as the off-hand weapon, does the benefit of the Two Weapon Fighting ability apply?

 

[shilsen]

I'm sure this has been discussed on these boards somewhere before, but ...

If you've got a lycanthrope character in hybrid form, you can either get two claw attacks (primary) and a bite attack (secondary) OR you can attack with a weapon (primary) and a bite attack (secondary).

Okay, so could you use as your primary attack a weapon in one hand and an off-hand attack (with appropriate penalties)?

If you want to use your claw as the off-hand weapon, does the benefit of the Two Weapon Fighting ability apply?

Yes, you can use a weapon in one hand as your primary attack (getting iterative attacks for BAB) and use your claw as an off-hand weapon. Two-Weapon Fighting does not apply in this case but Multiattack does. This is covered under the "Natural and Manufactured Weapons" paragraph under the Full Attack section on pg. 299 of the MM.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, you can use a weapon in one hand as your primary attack (getting iterative attacks for BAB) and use your claw as an off-hand weapon.

Not an off-hand weapon; a secondary natural attack.

-Hyp.

 

[shilsen]

Not an off-hand weapon; a secondary natural attack.

-Hyp.

My mistake. Thanks for the catch.

 

[Vlos]

To make matters worse, If you had Two Weapon Fighting, you could have a weapon in each hand, and still attack with your bite attack. Check out the latest WoTC FAQ for more information/ruling.

There are feats which reduce the -5 penalty for second Natural attack, called (IIR) MultiAttack and Improved MultiAttack.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Not an off-hand weapon; a secondary natural attack.

-Hyp.

Some hybrids get two claws as a PRIMARY attack, and a bite as the secondary attack.

So my question was can I use a second weapon in my PRIMARY attack, applying appropriate penalties.

I think Vlos understood my question. I'll have to check out that ruling. But it sounds like what I thought. Thanks!

 

[Vlos]

I believe the ruling is if you use a weapon, it becomes your PRIMARY attack, and any remaining attacks become your secondary attacks, including extra PRIMARY attacks. If you use two weapons it would be considered primary attacks.

So if a monster/character has four claw attacks as it's PRIMARY attack and a bite and tail slap as SECONDARY attacks, the character can use a weapon in two hands as a PRIMARY attack and his remaining claw attacks would then become a secondary attack along with the bite and tail slap.

With two weapons, you would use your Two Weapon fighting penalties based off your PRIMARY attack and apply the same penalty to SECONDARY attacks along with the penalty for SECONDARY attack (-5).

So if you had a total -2 penalty from two weapon fighting (with proper feats) and a BAB of 10, your first weapon would be at 8, second weapon (off hand) would be at 8, and your remaining claws/tail/bite would be at 3 (-2 + -5).

 

[Hypersmurf]

With two weapons, you would use your Two Weapon fighting penalties based off your PRIMARY attack and apply the same penalty to SECONDARY attacks along with the penalty for SECONDARY attack (-5).

TWF penalties don't apply to the secondary natural attacks.

Your main weapon is at -2; your off-hand weapon is at -2; your secondary natural attacks are at -5 (not -7).

-Hyp.

 

[Vlos]

From the latest FAQ

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0
unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2
hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he may make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

And from another part of FAQ...

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.

Now this is about Flurry of blows and Two weapon fighting and Flurry of Blows with Natural weapons, I would think that the same logic applies with by combining the two.
But logic doesn't always prevail in 3.5....

 

[Hypersmurf]

The -2 from Flurry of Blows applies to all attacks in a round, like Rapid Shot.

"When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."

So yes, that penalty applies to natural weapon attacks as well.

The penalties for TWF, on the other hand (heh), apply only to attacks with your primary hand and attacks with your off-hand.

"You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways..."

Attacks with secondary natural weapons are neither attacks with your primary hand nor attacks with your off-hand, and thus TWF penalties do not apply.

-Hyp.