Necromancer Games-update by Orcus

[JoeGKushner]

Well if you look at it properly they have done a new True20 product and it's inclusion in Warriors & Warlocks for M&M is also a product placement. Green Ronin is still doing stuff for it, but the campaign is still neutral and therefore doesn't need them to continue. Basically they tossed out the book into the middle of the ring and said have at it. We're sticking with our products but anyone is welcome to take a shot at doing products for it. C&C and the forth coming 4e books shows that others are stepping up to the plate and taking a shot.

As for my McD analogy I think of it more as WotC is the current owners of the chain. It's up to them what stays on the menu and what comes off. Right now there are a lot of customers that want older stuff to come back onto the menu and they should take advantage of that, even if it would only be special orders.

Yeah, and a lot of customer's want the McLean back on the menu too.

It's a nice daydream, but WoTC isn't even selling it's current in print books via PDF/POD. Why would they model two business systems when they don't have to?

 

[Voadam]

But Green Ronin isn't doing it. This is important. They're not doing ANY generic books this year. This indicates to me that it's not a runaway success. This is probably more true of people who play several game systems. If you run C&C and D&D3e and D&D4e, how many of the mechanical sourcebooks are you going to buy?

The fact that Green Ronin hasn't continued making system neutral games to me, argues that it's not as profitible as making specific system supplements such as Mutants & Masterminds or A Game of Thrones.

Eh, I don't have any numbers but I expect the statless Pirate's Guide was a huge success. It has tons of support from GR. I expect very few would buy a C&C or a 3rd Era or a 4e Freeport rules support book without first having the Freeport book itself.

Statless seems suited for story and flavor element things so settings are a natural and their cult and NPC description books seem like good fits as well but some types of products do much better with rules material: splats, adventures, monsters, NPCs you expect to enter combat, etc.

 

[Voadam]

Have it your way is not McDonald's slogan, it is Burger Kings.

 

[AllisterH]

Yes. And...

3e fans will get more 3pp support than 4e fans, because 3E fans buy 3PP product.

There has been some 4E 3PP. And far to few 4E fans bought it.

And the reason why (and I think many people are still not seriously considering) is the char builder. Unless a 3PP's stuff becomes part of the char builder, you're going to find many more DMs just saying "no" to 3rd party products even if the GSL had been a verbatim copy of the OGL.

 

[dm4hire]

Have it your way is not McDonald's slogan, it is Burger Kings.

Oh sure, turn this into a food war!

 

[dm4hire]

And the reason why (and I think many people are still not seriously considering) is the char builder. Unless a 3PP's stuff becomes part of the char builder, you're going to find many more DMs just saying "no" to 3rd party products even if the GSL had been a verbatim copy of the OGL.

I'm not seeing this as much of a problem as believed. DDI doesn't seem to have the following it's believed to have and seems to be losing more daily. Course it's hard to prove or refute as we'll never see the numbers. I only know of about four players out of the twenty or so players I game with admit to using it. That may change but then again it might not.

 

[Mistwell]

Way off the mark, in my opinion.

Not to beat a dead horse, but 4e doesn't allow Clark to "tell the kinds of stories he wants to tell."

He's not publishing to make a living, he's doing it because he enjoys the game. 4e just doesn't "do it" for Clark, so it's easy for him to give it a pass.

There's not a lack of business acumen, there's a lack of enthusiasm.

(Blithely putting words in Clark's mouth despite the fact I know he's right here...)

None of that is included in his reasons. He gives his reasons in the OP, and it's not "I don't like 4e". I think you might have him confused with Paizo. Clark has had enthusiasm for 4e. He has plenty of stories he wants to tell through 4e apparently.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Eh, I don't have any numbers but I expect the statless Pirate's Guide was a huge success. It has tons of support from GR. I expect very few would buy a C&C or a 3rd Era or a 4e Freeport rules support book without first having the Freeport book itself.

Statless seems suited for story and flavor element things so settings are a natural and their cult and NPC description books seem like good fits as well but some types of products do much better with rules material: splats, adventures, monsters, NPCs you expect to enter combat, etc.

So it was such a huge success that they haven't made any other systemless settings?

Strange. When some companies find something that's highly profitible, they continue doing it.

Green Ronin has tons of books for settings that could get this style treatment ranging form their elf setting to the isle of psionicists (that got kicked in the neitherregions by the 3.5 switch), to book of the righteous. That they haven't speaks volumes.

Unless I'm way off base, companies don't go, "you know, while we'd sell thousands more of this book, let's instead do this one."

 

[Mistwell]

I dunno. Building 3rd party extensibility into the DDI seems to me to much more of a better mousetrap than one which only gets input from WotC. Isn't that a key part of digital initiatives -- to harness the vast power of the online market?

I'd love to see DDI expandable to encompass 3p products. Perhaps with a product key included with a hardcopy of a book. I don't think it's going to happen, but I'd love to see it happen.

 

[Orcus]

Again, wouldn't the biggest obstacle for 3PP be the total lack of support on the char builder?

Seriously, look at the online 4e games and they seem to ALWAYS say "char builder-legal". Moreso than the GSL, this is what kills off 3PP support IMO.

Not sure that is the biggest obstacle, but it is the one most focused on new 3P classes or powers. I told Scott I thought the Character Builder was great. In a perfect world (which we dont live in) I'd love to see an open plug in for people to create homebrew content (or 3P content) that they could plug into CharBuilder. That would solve that problem