Necromancer: which two schools to give up?

[Krelios]

Being a specialist is practically a no brainer.

Well we agree with that; it's just that I think it'd be brainless to specialize...

Honestly; your argument is only flawed in that the wizard's normally limited selection almost never leaves spells out from other schools. Almost every wizard would need access to spells from each school. To make my point...

Identify (Divination)
Dispel Magic (Abjuration)
Teleport (Conjuration)
Fireball/Lightning Bolt (Evocation)
Invisibility/Blur (Illusion)
Polymorph (Transmutation)
Hold Person/Monster (Enchantment)
Ray of Enfeeblement (Necromancy)

What it boils down to for me is Wizard = Flexibility, Sorcerer = Quantity over Quality. I don't see an option where a specialist wizard is really a better choice than simply playing a sorcerer--unless, of course, you're using the Unearthed Arcana variants; and even then it's still a tough choice.

...so you might as well specialize and pick the schools wth spells you don't plan on dipping into anyhow.

I can't think of a school that I don't plan on at least dipping into. That'd be denying an awful lot.

 

[B4cchus]

I don't agree with your stating that a non-specialist is so much more versatile. I'll you through your list of spells to try and explain why this isn't the be all/end all of the wizard.

Identify (Divination)
True, can't do without, except when you are running a campaign where you can easily acces other spellcasters to do it for you as a service (not at low level since the cost would be too steep. At high level this isn't much of a point)
Dispel Magic (Abjuration)
True, never lave home without it, except when you have a cleric or cleric levels
Teleport (Conjuration)
True, except when you are running specific campaigns where teleport is useless (i'm playing the WLD atm, where i can't use it effectively)
Fireball/Lightning Bolt (Evocation)
True, although a wizard doen't imply you are always an artillery mage. Ability damage is so much more fun.
Invisibility/Blur (Illusion)
Not so true, since invisibility is nerfed when you can spot/listen.
Polymorph (Transmutation)
Not true, i still fail to see the use of it. Since you don't polymorph yourself into a combat brute to go to the frontline, you're a wizard.
Hold Person/Monster (Enchantment)
True, although the save dc is not that high. It is a nice save or die varent, given.
I also never used charm spells to much effect (since we have bluff/diplomacy)
Ray of Enfeeblement (Necromancy)
True, although i'd go for ability damage spells that can lower an ability below 1, like (lesser) chilling touch from Frostburn (3d6 dex damage anyone? no, there is no save, ah! and maximised/empowered as well)

And why still use a specialist instead of a sorcerer?
Simple: acces to higher level spells at lower levels. This helps a great deal when qualifying for PrC's
-Maybe- someone would even want to get a familiar....

 

[Liquidsabre]

Well we agree with that; it's just that I think it'd be brainless to specialize...

Dunno perhpas you haven't looked at what the specialist actually gains close enough, there's some interesting math you might try looking at. For example, a specialist gains a +1 spell/day at their highest spell level, well all spell levels of course but let's first look at the highest spell level. A wizard, at their highest spel level, has a base spells/day of 1. That's nice but doesn't get you very far especially since your highest level has you most powerful spells. As a specialist you just doubled the number of spells you cast/day at your highest spell level. Compared to a generalist wizard you can now cast a number of spells at your highest spell level equal to TWO generalist wizards of the same level. Not too shabby that, all by itself. Not to mention the specialist receives another +1 spell/day at every spell level below their highest spell level as well. That's just icing on the cake.

Honestly; your argument is only flawed in that the wizard's normally limited selection almost never leaves spells out from other schools. Almost every wizard would need access to spells from each school.

Saying that a wizard *must* take spells from *all* the schools is going more than a little over board. There are very, very few must-have spells in the wizard's spell list. Certianly the few must-have spells that do exist abslutely do not span across all schools of magic. Now while I agree that a ray of enfeeblement is a good spell but saying it is a must-have is a fallacy. Now there are alot of good spells in the wizard spell list, that's not to be argued, but certainly there are far fewer must-haves in the spell list.

I can't think of a school that I don't plan on at least dipping into. That'd be denying an awful lot.

You'd be denying alot less than you think. Instead of trying to describe all the spells you consider are must-haves (Divination btw can't be selected as a prohibited school), how about just the spells you'd miss out on if you took one or two prohibited schools? Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy are popular schools to drop. Try two of those and defend the spells in those schools as absolute must-haves. Not an easy proposition that.

 

[interwyrm]

For my abjurer, I dropped enchantment and necromancy. Of course... necromancy isn't a choice for you.

Here are the reasons I didn't drop each school:
Illusion - invisibility. blur. mirror image.
Evocation - nope, not anything blasty... contingency.
Transmutation - polymorph, bull's strength, endurance etc.
Conjuration - teleport mostly, actual summoning spells as well
Abjuration was my speciality because it has so many good defensive spells as well as dispel magic.
Divination may not be dropped. It does have some good spells in it though.

Honestly, for you I would probably drop evocation and either conjuration or enchantment.

 

[Voadam]

Enchantment and illusion both have will save spells. Dropping one and keeping the other means you can still target brutes and rogues. Illusion has more defense spells while charming has out of combat uses (info gathering from captured foes for instance).

conjuration and necromancy both have a bunch of blasts that fill the same niche as evocations.

Undead servants can fill the same niche as summoned critters, sort of, but teleport is a biggie at higher levels.

If you don't want to be a buffer then transmutation can be dropped easy.

 

[Mistwell]

I'd go for ability damage spells that can lower an ability below 1, like (lesser) chilling touch from Frostburn (3d6 dex damage anyone? no, there is no save, ah! and maximised/empowered as well).

I think you mean Shivering Touch. And lesser is 1d6. The normal one (3rd level spell) is 3d6.

So empowered, it's a 5th level spell for an average of 16 Dex damage, no save (touch attack, SR does apply). OUCH. Motionless, ridgid, and helpless for 1 round/level. Essentially like Hold Monster without the saving throw. But given it is a touch spell, you probably want to use your spectral hand spell to deliver the touch. If you hit, it should take most opponants out of the fight for long enough for someone to deliver a killing blow.

 

[Armendil]

I think enchantment can easily go, it's flavor tends to conflict with necromancy. Illusion seems like another good choice, but then you give up all of those cool shadow spells that complement necromancers rather well. Conjuration seems to overlap. Who needs to summon monsters when you can use undead servents instead. But then you lose the ability to summon fiends, ride that phantasmal steed or open infernal gates to the netherworld. Plus you miss all the cool acid spells that go well with nasty necromancy. I'd get rid of evocation if you can live without flashy attacks, or transmutation if you can do without those self-made amulets of health and headbands of intellect.

 

[Pseudonym]

Thanks for all of the advice folks. Many different design philosophies to ponder.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Identify (Divination) I never use it unless I'm playing a Diviner.
Dispel Magic (Abjuration) Powerful...a quintessential spell for a mage, unless you like a challenge.
Teleport (Conjuration) Almost never use it.
Fireball/Lightning Bolt (Evocation) I LOVE to play Raiden!
Invisibility/Blur (Illusion) Invisibility is a fave in this school, but I have many casters without it.
Polymorph (Transmutation) Almost never use it.
Hold Person/Monster (Enchantment) Almost never use it.
Ray of Enfeeblement (Necromancy) Used it 2 times with mixed results.

Essential spells? I don't think so!

I haven't played a generalist mage since they introduced the concept of specialists! That extra spellpower AT LEAST compensates for losing a few powerful spells- you get to abuse the hell out of your favorites almost as much as the sorcerer.

As for what I would drop for a Necromancer...I agree with the previous well, reasoned assertions for dropping Enchantment. I really enjoy the synergies of Conjuration and Illusion with Necromancy. Divination and Abjuration do a lot to keep you and your (living) allies alive.

Which of the remaining 2 schools would I drop? Transmutation, my favorite school. A lot of Transmutation spells accentuate the characteristics of you or your allies. While most would do just as well targeting undead minions, some are USELESS- Darkvision? Water Breathing? I think you'd get more milage out of the sheer firepower of the Evocation school.

Send in your illusions, conjured creatures and (illusorily disguised?) undead shock troops, then finish off your foes with a nice fireball or some lightning bolts...who cares if they get fried? Necromancer as Field Marshal = MUCHO FUN!

 

[Testament]

Let's see...

Abjuration: A must keep, if for no other reason than Dispel Magic. This spell saves lives.

Conjuration: The ability to cause SR ignoring damage is fantastic, as is teleportation and the escape hatch/Dimension Door. Another keeper.

Divination: You can't give this one up.

Enchantment: Once you get past Sleep, what is there that's so hot?

Evocation: No longer even the best blasting school, if you're using the Complete Conjurer in the campaign. Consider ditching it.

Illusion: I'd rather lose an arm than give up Invisibility.

Transmutation: Ow. I personally can't see how its anything less than madness to give up this. Give this up and you can't make or upgrade the headband of intellect or amulet of health that most wizard/sorcs I know craft for themselves ASAP. And do I need to mention Fly and Haste? Or the game shattering power of Polymorph and Shapechange?

For me, its a no brainer. So long Evocation and Enchantment.