Necromancy questions

[Magesmiley]

You might want to look again at the True Necromancer prestige class. One important thing to remember that a lot of people forget is that animate dead's control limitations is based on caster level, not character level, so you effectively have 2 pools of HD control (one for arcane, plus one for divine, and you get your rebuking control on top of this).

Another thing to consider... the True Necromancer class requires the ability to cast two specific spells rather than the ability to cast 2nd level spells. Taking the precocious apprentice feat (CA) and one level of wizard will allow you to meet the arcane side. Add in 4 levels of cleric and you can go with True Necromancer at 6th level rather than 7th. You've only really given up 1 level of turning and cleric casting (initially) and will in the long-term reap considerable benefits on casting ability.

 

[Kavok]

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129

:-\

 

[Seeten]

Dread Necromancer is a slick, focused package.

Arcane Disciple: Undeath is indeed based of wisdom. A 13 wisdom nets you the prize: Animate dead 2 levels early.

Arcane Disciple: Evil nets you another prize at 12 wisdom: Desecrate.

Since you have a 12 wisdom to start, these are both sweet.

With your casting stat at 12, I dont know how this will work out for you, casting wise. But I wish you luck. At least thats a nice strength for touch attacks/etc and DN lets you wear some armor/etc

 

[Kavok]

Dread Necromancer is a slick, focused package.

Arcane Disciple: Undeath is indeed based of wisdom. A 13 wisdom nets you the prize: Animate dead 2 levels early.

Arcane Disciple: Evil nets you another prize at 12 wisdom: Desecrate.

Since you have a 12 wisdom to start, these are both sweet.

With your casting stat at 12, I dont know how this will work out for you, casting wise. But I wish you luck. At least thats a nice strength for touch attacks/etc and DN lets you wear some armor/etc

I think the DM is going to give us an ability point every other level over the course of the game.

So right now I have a total of +6, at the end I'd have +16.

Okay.

I guess my two starting feats will be:
Tomb Tainted Soul (I convinced him to let me take it @ 1)
Arcane Disciple (Undeath) <-- im not not so sure about this though, most of the spells in this domain somewhat overlap with spells I already, but it DOES net me desecrate, is desecrate worth a feat? Do I get the domain bonus to which is the feat 'Extra Turning' ?

Is there any reason to take Evil over Undeath?


What should I take at third level?

At sixth im probably taking Undead Leadership or Leadership.

 

[moritheil]

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.

I don't think most DMs would go for that . . . the other points are mostly valid. As I said before, you get around having low save DCs by not being a blaster at all. Desecrate is actually pretty helpful if the DM continually throws paladins/lower level clerics at you.

That said . . .

I guess my two starting feats will be:
Tomb Tainted Soul (I convinced him to let me take it @ 1)
Arcane Disciple (Undeath) <-- im not not so sure about this though, most of the spells in this domain somewhat overlap with spells I already, but it DOES net me desecrate, is desecrate worth a feat? Do I get the domain bonus to which is the feat 'Extra Turning' ?

I wouldn't burn a feat on desecrate, when instead you could get 2 corpsecrafter feats or corpsecrafter and a mother cyst.

 

[mvincent]

I've selected the Undeath Domain (Libris Mortis) but I dunno what to pick for my second, any suggestions?

The magic domain is a favorite as it allows you to use arcane magic items: 1st level arcane wands can be very cheap an useful. This would seem to allow you to command even more undead than normal by using arcane scrolls/wands of animate dead (as your effective wizard level for this would normally be separate from your cleric levels, similar to a mystic theurge... but ask your DM)

Also, the ability to cast identify without paying the 100 gp cost is pretty handy for an adventuring party.

Lastly: this should allow you to declare Wee Jas as your deity (which has nice role-playing benefits).

 

[Kavok]

You can't animate dead until level 8 anyway. Take Tomb-Tainted Soul early on, so you can heal yourself. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy are no-brainers. Corpsecrafter won't stack the ability bonuses on your undead, but the extra hit points will stack. Both of those also stack with the extra HP undead get when created in a desecrated area.

If you want competent animated dead, look in the Draconomicon, and at the Skeleton Dragon and Zombie Dragon templates.

Even though skeletons and zombies can't usually threaten an enemy directly at high levels, don't underestimate them. Here are my tips for undead in combat:

1: Have them use grapple, sunder and disarm manouveres, especially if they're Huge size (sunders and disarms recieve a bonus based on size). At the very least, they'll make the enemy use up their attack of opportunity.

2: Speaking of attacks of opportunity, have your minions move through the threatened area of enemies. If the foe takes the bait, then the rogue and fighter can move around them with no fear.

2: Don't forget the potential of flanking and the Aid Another action. Those can turn even weak summons into useful aides.

3: They can block the lines of charges for enemies or give you cover from ranged attacks.

4: Pick creatures with lots of primary natural attacks--Chimeras or Hydras are good. Since skeletons are immune to cold, fire-subtype creatures gain two immunities and no vulnerabilities.

5: If a creature can use weapons, give it a reach weapon so that it can fight from behind the front lines.

6: At higher caster levels, Unliving Weapon (BoVD) is a great Expanded Knowledge spell. Cast it on a zombie with few HD and a fast flight speed. Have it fly into the floor near enemies and then explode for no-save, no-SR damage.

7: Against unintelligent foes, don't underestimate the value of having your undead simply sitting there and absorbing damage, buying time for everyone else.

8: Persuade the other casters to invest in Haste, Recitation, Prayer, Unholy Aura, and any Mass spell. At high levels, why not use the extra potential targets on undead? They can be surprisingly badass when buffed till they shine.

Why won't the Undead Mastery and the Corpsecrafter completely stack?

 

[Kurotowa]

Why won't the Undead Mastery and the Corpsecrafter completely stack?

They're both an enhancement bonus to Str and Dex. Undead Mastery is effectively the Corpsecrafter feat plus some other abilities rolled into one class ability. THe HP bonus is untyped, which is why that will stack if you really want it.

As an update to the old advice, Complete Mage has the Deadwalker's Ring, which gives you the Desecrate bonus to undead HP for only 4000gp. A much better alternative to taking a feat for the actual spell.

 

[Ozmar]

As an update to the old advice, Complete Mage has the Deadwalker's Ring, which gives you the Desecrate bonus to undead HP for only 4000gp. A much better alternative to taking a feat for the actual spell.

Oooo... good idea. There's also a rod of undead mastery somewhere (probably Libris Mortis) which doubles your control limit for a couple grand.

I am liking these ideas. I'm also playing a Dread Necromancer. Ozmarius Necromunda Wormfiend is now level 10, and I'm loving him. Been playing from level 1. I actually started as a wizard, but my DM let me convert over to DN once I discovered that class. So now he's a full DN.

I took Corpsecrafter, Deadly Chill, Destruction Retribution and finally, Leadership. I am planning on a cleric cohort to supplement my undead with access to cool necromancy spells that I don't have.

My minions at the moment include: a chimera zombie (which I ride in battle), an "octopin" zombie (some kind of octopus-like aberration we encountered), and a greater doppleganger skeleton. I've been very impressed with the large number of hit points that the zombies have. The skeleton, as a 9-hd creature, has 100 hit points, and the other two zombies each have over 170 hit points. Since they are all dealing extra cold damage with their attacks, they can be fairly effective.

I also have found some useful spells to further increase their offensive ability. Undead torch gives all my undead +2d6 damage against living foes. If I summon 4 troll skeletons with a summon monster V, thats a fairly large mass of threatening undead I can throw into the melee. Blade of blood is a touch spell that can be cast as a swift action to give my skeleton up to 3d6 extra damage on its next attack, if I take 5 damage myself. Spectral hand, of course, lets me deliver all kinds of touch spells, including the blade of blood, all over the battle. And false life (a daily casting) and vampiric touch ensure that I am seldom below my maximum hit points.

With a 20 Cha (thanks to a +2 cloak), I can control 90 HD of undead. I am currently only commanding 45. So it could get worse. Yes, I am liking this character very, very much.

And don't even get me started about some of my new 5th-level spells. Lesser planar binding? Magic jar? I can't wait to abuse those spells.

Dread Necromancer rocks! I've seen another player try to play the True Necromancer in my game before, and sadly, he sucks. They finally made a decent necromancer, and it is the DN.

Plus, I get to be a lich someday! Woot!

Ozmar the Dread Necromancer

 

[RonYon]

Cleric all the way.
Its has always(3.0+) been the best overall at Necro stuff,now it is even better than ever.
The Complete Mage book has a Alternative Class feature callled Divine Magician.
It lets you trade one domain for the right to add one spell to your spell list at each level that you gain spells at. The spell must be of the level gained, must come from the S/W list, and they must be from the schools of Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy.
Command Undead. Magic Jar. Awaken Undead. All as cleriic spells usable as many times as you have slots.
Take this as a Cloisterd Cleric, trade in the Knowledge Domain( cheesy,I know) and still have two domains to chose for the sake of their domain powers.
Another way to go is to not specialize, but make yourself so adaptable that you can do Necro, when you feel like it, and pretty much any thing else as well.
Try this: Alternative Class Feature: Spontanious Domain Casting, from the PHBII.
Lets you pick a Domain, and cast the spells in that Domain spontaneously, in the same way that cleric usally cast Cures.
Which is what you give up to get this , but who cares? Your a freeking Necomancer, a Death Preist, not the freeking heal stick. Besides , even if you do decide to fill that roll, you can jsut fill your slots with Cures, and convert them to your Domain spells as you need them.
So, let me finish describing this trick.
Take the Spontaneous Doamin Casting Alt .feature, and choose Spell Domain( now Feruen free, thanks to the Spell Compendium).
This will let you prepare 1st through 5th level spell from the ANY arcane spell list, and cast them as many times as you have 3rd level plus slots to burn.All thanks to the Spell Domains awesome 3rd level Anyspell and 6th level Greater Anyspell.
You do need 15 minute casting time for each spell, and you can only have one 2cnd or lower and one 5th or lower spell prepared at a time.But this still grants you acess to most of the spells in the game. And of course, most of the spells in the game means most of the Necromatic spells in the game as well.
Undead Luitenant? You can get it.Disguise Undead? You can have that too.Ghoul Glyph, Incorporeal Enhancement, Mass Reflexive Diguise, all yours for the price of a copy of the spell.
Note that the last spell I listed isnt a Necromancy spell at all. It is a good way to move about in public with a small cadre of Undead, without calling unwanted attention to oneself.
Being a ubergeralist can help you be a better Necromancer.Mass Fly on your favorit Undead shook troops anyone?
All of the spells I listed last a relatively long time, thus granting benifit yet freeing up your Domain slots for your next use of Anyspell.
Of course you do need a copy of the spell. But unlike a wizard, you just need a copy. Not your own copy, just a copy.No tranlation into your personal magical script needed.
If your party wizard is up for it, you can just "cheat" off of him.
Split the cost of your prefered spells with him if his own choices dont suit you.
This Alt calss feature can be used along with the Divine Magician, in order to capture some of the 5th plus Necromatic Wizard spells you wouldnt have other wise.

Now, on the subject of Awakened Undead,nothing in the spell says you they are automaticly freed from what ever power you have over them. If you want to free them, I sugest a lot of diplomacy.If you are evil, and powerful enogh, you should be able to find commen cause with them.I say use Undead leadership and get your self an undead dragon big enough to ride, then Spellstitch it.

One last thing. I love me some undead. But after Caster Level 13, I might not bother with them. Necrotic Tumor becomes available. BEST NECROTIC MINION MAKER EVER?!!?
Now instead of Calling,trapping and killing Lesser Planar Bound beasties, or Lesser Dragon Ally bruisers, only to reanimate, awaken, etc, you instead Call them, trap them, and infect them first with Necrotic Cyst , next with Necrotic Tumor. Yours for life, or at least until dispelled(pump up those caster levels).All you need is some time and space to build that army of 15 HD dragons.Ahhh.