Need clarification on "No Retailer Links" rule

[Dinkeldog]

Wake me up when the dust settles.

In the meantime, doesn't this policy pretty much ensure that this forum is now dead?

I don't think it does. If you have an option, it is only polite to direct people to the ENWorld store when you can. It will help keep the whole operation afloat.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Errm... I don't think you understood what he was saying there, Steve. He wasn't disagreeing with you, he was saying reduced sales are still sales that wouldn't be there with no press release at all.

I believe I understood him correctly. It's just that the "something is better than nothing" arguement isn't a very valid one when other alternatives are available and when myself and others largely see it as an unnecessary step to begin with, especially when the subtext is clearly "one more click won't be that bad." It's an arguement that ignores the fact that spreading press releases about multiple sites takes time, time that has to be carefully measured by most PDF companies that are one-man operations outsourcing to talent. As I've stated several times, if people learn that they can get the full benefit of a complete, link filled press release elsewhere, the context of that extra click is pushing publishers to those other sites because people don't want to piss off their customers.

And don't tell me it won't piss of customers to the point where the press releases are dramatically reduced in value to the publishers. Yesterday when this was released I soon had an email in my Inbox from a customer of mine who was upset with the decision and was already suggesting alternatives. Now, it certainly takes a dedicate fan to go that extra mile and express their feelings in an email so anyone want to hazard a guess how many customers feel likewise without having emailed their favorite publishers?

 

[Morrus]

Now, it certainly takes a dedicate fan to go that extra mile and express their feelings in an email so anyone want to hazard a guess how many customers feel likewise without having emailed their favorite publishers?

And yet, I've had several emails from fans saying "stick by your guns - you're doing nothing wrong!" and things along those lines. It certainly takes a dedicated fan to go that extra mile and express their feelings in an email so anyone want to hazard a guess how many visitors feel likewise without having emailed their favorite D&D website?

Sorry, Steve, that's a direction of "evidence" that isn't going to win any debate here!

Umm.. Steve, I've kinda lost track of what your point is (not being funny... there's just too much verbiage going on). You're saying - an extra click means that EN World will die because of the various reasons you've cited above? I'm a little unclear as to your conclusion.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

And yet, I've had several emails from fans saying "stick by your guns - you're doing nothing wrong!" and things along those lines. It certainly takes a dedicated fan to go that extra mile and express their feelings in an email so anyone want to hazard a guess how many visitors feel likewise without having emailed their favorite D&D website?

Sorry, Steve, that's a direction of "evidence" that isn't going to win any debate here!

That's a false arguement on your part, however. After all, you hardly need to prove that people will stay here. Of course they will! There are thousands of members and potential customers, so I find it a hard stretch of fantasy to believe any amount significiant to EnWorld will leave. However, when my point is "this will unnecessarily drive some customers away because they don't like the extra bother and that's not something the publishers will want to see" it does indeed prove that point when a customer starts offering a publisher alternatives. And those small number of customers mean more to a typical PDF publisher than it does to the general body of EnWorld members. You're essentially telling me that because all pitbulls are dogs that all dogs must be pitbulls while I'm telling you that all you need is one dog that clearly isn't a pitbull to realize otherwise.

Considering your previous posts, Morrus, I've little doubt I'll fail to convince you that this is something to be concerned about but it doesn't mean I won't present my concerns to you.

 

[Morrus]

I'm sorry, but I just didn't understand that, Steve! Far too confusing!

I'm still not clear what your ultimate point is. Yes, an extra click will mean less sales. I agree. Where does your logical train take you after that?

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I'm sorry, but I just didn't understand that, Steve! Far too confusing!

I'm still not clear what your ultimate point is. Yes, an extra click will mean less sales. I agree. Where does your logical train take you after that?

We'll add an extra step to the logic train then

You bring up the point that you've got emails from people telling you to stick to your guns so that my customer's email isn't relevant to either side. That's not true. My customer base is a LOT smaller than EnWorld's membership, so the fact even one has emailed me about this speak volumes as compare to the ratio of emails to members EnWorld has over all. And yes, even just one email to this affect proves that this policy has a negative effect on customers--once that single email comes in, no amount of emails to the contrary can ever prove otherwise. We do indeed move from the evidence proving my point to you deciding what to do with that evidence, but you've already said that you don't plan on making alterations.

My further point is that the one email I got, while numerically insignificant to you and the large body of EnWorld, has a much greater effect for me, who obviously has a smaller body of customers than you have members. That means the decisions I make will necessarily be based more on those few voices, and I imagine the same will go for other publishers if they began getting similar emails from their customers. All members of EnWorld are people looking into what EnWorld has to offer, yet not all members of EnWorld are customers of myself or any other publisher, so the smaller voices have to count for more with us and the danger therein is that if those small voices become loud enough with enough publishers, EnWorld risks losing a lot of what sets it a part from the rest of the d20 sites.

As a publisher, I've enjoyed talking with other publishers here and gaining promotional advantages the site has previously afforded. Long before I was a publisher, I enjoyed reading what goes on here way back to when Eric still ran the place. I've been here a long time and think fondly on almost all that period. However, if my customers begin telling me I'm wasting their time here I'm likely going to start considering what they have to say regardless of how their numbers stack up against EnWorld's overall membership.

 

[Morrus]

OK.... too long again!

My attempt to sumamrise: your logic works thus so far -

1) Extra click means less sales.

2) EN World therefore less useful to customers.

3) Thus the publishers will all go elsewhere.

Is that right so far? What comes next?

I'm really trying to simplify this into an understandable point - no offence, but your long essays aren't actually resonating or gelling into a point for me. I know you have one, I just need to get you to put it into "Morrus-speak" for me!

 

[RangerWickett]

I believe I understood him correctly. It's just that the "something is better than nothing" arguement isn't a very valid one when other alternatives are available and when myself and others largely see it as an unnecessary step to begin with, especially when the subtext is clearly "one more click won't be that bad."

I'm curious, Steve, do you now or do you intend in the future to sell at the new EN World GameStore (or sell print products through the already existing store)? If so, then can't you still post press releases here and point people to EN World's store just as easily as you could have pointed them elsewhere before?

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I'm curious, Steve, do you now or do you intend in the future to sell at the new EN World GameStore (or sell print products through the already existing store)? If so, then can't you still post press releases here and point people to EN World's store just as easily as you could have pointed them elsewhere before?

As with all storefronts I sell at, I like to investigate them first. Seeing as how the EnWorld storefront currently has no history to examine no, I don't imagine I'll be joining it until some time in Q2 2006 or later, if ever. The fee is also a bit steep for an untested storefront, so there's another reason for me to hold off. If I do go through with it, however, it doesn't change the fact that I still can't point out ALL the options I make available. Not all my press releases have every store it's available in because some can take days after I release it at one to post the product, but when they are on the ball I like to make sure my press releases have all a customer's options available, regardless of where I post it. That's just smart marketing. Cutting off customer options is not smart marketing.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

OK.... too long again!

My attempt to sumamrise: your logic works thus so far -

1) Extra click means less sales.

2) EN World therefore less useful to customers.

3) Thus the publishers will all go elsewhere.

Is that right so far? What comes next?

I'm really trying to simplify this into an understandable point - no offence, but your long essays aren't actually resonating or gelling into a point for me. I know you have one, I just need to get you to put it into "Morrus-speak" for me!

Yeah, I realize my English training taught me to be long winded so as to cover as many approaches to a point as possible. As my profs used to say, there's no such thing as a long way to make a point

You're essentially noting most of my key points if not some of the finer ones. I don't consider it a certainty, as no one can tell the future, but it's something I've seen often enough in non-rpg contexts to worry about happening here. Brass tacks: people like options, especially if they're going to be shelling out cash. Anytime you make things more difficult for customers, and that's what taking away options is, you risk pissing them off and driving them elsewhere.