Need clarification on "No Retailer Links" rule

[Vascant]

I for one want ENWorld's new venture to succeed. I almost signed up with them in the beginning but seen a few things I did not care for and really did not wish my products involved in it. Yet I do see some good in what they are doing, this extra click some are worried about one of the issues I even had dealing with RPGNow regarding their recent change.

There is good from all this...

As Morris even pointed out, this will cause the general customer to get smarter, learn to read more and in turn, force publishers to make use of their own websites. Publishers need to take advantage of the moment and look at the good, start selling their products on their own sites and quit paying the 20-30% fee. If you do not think it works, I have sold 600+ copies of NPC Designer since August 1st and only sell on my site. That means I would have paid one of these Retail Outlets almost $2000 (At 20%) in fees, but instead my wife spent it on ebay.

As BrooklynKnight, myself and a few others were talking about last night, it comes down to advertising and the things you do to generate traffic to your site. It might take creating a little free content each week to keep them coming, might take grouping up with some other publishers or those that offer services but it does work. No other person is responsible for your own success more then yourself. This is Morris's baby and he can make the changes how he pleases and with each change comes good and bad. The point is if Morris can manage to succeed and make this work, he will create his own enemy.. a smarter customer. This customer will no longer go to a single location to buy his products but has learned to look around and find a better deal. He has learned to read a little more, investigate a little more and will even figure out the difference from a sales gimmick and a good buy.

I think the d20 industry needs this customer. This is just my opinion.

 

[sjmiller]

First of all, I want to thank Morrus for answering my question and for being quick in responding to all the barrage of messages here.

Second, I want to say something from my personal viewpoint as a lazy consumer. That's right, I am lazy. When I shop for things online, which primarily consist of pdfs and the occational holiday gift, the less I have to do the better. Heck, even when reading online newspapers I only tend to read the stuff that does not require me to register. Basically, the fewer clicks I have to make the better.

I like it when I see someone talk about their product and they have a link in their sig or in the message itself. I can click and go right to the place I can buy it. Since this link is most likely to the publisher's most favorable vendor, I know that if I trust the publisher I can most likely trust the vendor. Trusting the vendor is a different issue, which I will address in a minute.

Now, if I see an announcement of a product I am interested in, I will click on the link provided to check out the price and (most often) the reviews posted at the store site. If I click on the link and it takes me to another page where I have to click on another link to finally get to where I can do the reviewing, well, I find that a tad annoying. Why couldn't they just bring me to the sale site in the first place? Why make me jump through one more hoop to get to a place where I can buy their stuff? If I am clicking on the link it means I want to buy what they are selling. The more I have to go through to get there (on my dial-up slow service) the less likely I am to buy it. Even if I think it is really cool, and something I would really, truly enjoy, if I have to go from one site to another to another just to get it, I most likely will not.

With regards to trust, this is something very important to me. I purchase online from very few places. Before I buy from them I research them, making sure there are few problems in their past (there's always someone who complains, so nobody is perfect), that their sales site is secure, and that they make it as easy as possible for the buyer to make a purchase. Most importantly, for me, the vendor has to have a proven track record. I buy from very few sites as it is, and none of them are new. I want to make sure that they have ironed out any security issues before I trust them with my personal and financial information.

So, with that in mind I look at this new site, with this new policy, and as a consumer I just shake my head. Now they want me to register for yet another store site if I want to easily purchase items I see reviewed here. Add to that the fact that I cannot get to any other sales site without having to go through yet another site. This means, for me at least, that the items I might have casually picked up with go unpurchased and even the really interesting ones will go unpurchased.

Now, I realize that it doesn't matter to you if I purchase something from these other sites, but it will matter to you that I will most likely not be purchasing them from your site either. This is because I really do not want to register for yet another store site, especially one that is brand new and untested (in my eyes). To me, that makes the ENWorld site less useful than it has been in the past. It also means that I will probably reduce my visits to the site, as my main reason for coming here is to find out about new items to buy.

These are just my own personal, and long winded, thoughts on the subject. I am fairly sure that while they are not the norm, they are far from unique.

 

[Morrus]

Now they want me to register for yet another store site if I want to easily purchase items I see reviewed here.

... I will most likely not be purchasing them from your site either. This is because I really do not want to register for yet another store site, especially one that is brand new and untested (in my eyes).

Lucky for you you're already registered then!

It runs off your existing EN World registration. Not only are you registered, you're also already logged in! Why not pop into the store and quickly download a free product to see what I mean? I'll even give you a direct link to a page full of free stuff:

http://www.enworld.org/shop/index.php?do=new&free=1

Even if I think it is really cool, and something I would really, truly enjoy, if I have to go from one site to another to another just to get it, I most likely will not.

You're even luckier, then! Now you don't have to go to another site at all! You can just stay on this one! You're a lucky man! All your wishes in one fell swoop!

In seriousness, though, I do get what you're saying. And if you choose not to stay here because of it, I understand.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Originally Posted by sjmiller
Now they want me to register for yet another store site if I want to easily purchase items I see reviewed here.

... I will most likely not be purchasing them from your site either. This is because I really do not want to register for yet another store site, especially one that is brand new and untested (in my eyes).

And this is where Enworld has a built in advantage over other storefronts. It has a forum base of thousands of users who already HAVE accounts and direct access to the store without having to sign up again.

The question is, will developers see this as benefit? When posting their press releases at enworld, they have one of two options now...

A. They can post a link to their own site from which they can point fans to all their storefronts..

B. They can post a link to their Enworld Store front, where an Enworld member is already logged in and a click away from purchase.

In B its almost exactly like before, except previously the primary choice of link was rpgnow.

Face it, a LOT of enworlders shop there because it was the first, and for a long time it was the best. Now, Enworld is trying to shimmy into that place by following the same method. Except Morrus is using his own forum, and trying to ensure that his link is used in place of another.

Its solid buisness strategy. It may not seem particularly fair to developers or some consumers because now they are limited in what they can post. But ENGS is a buisness, and ENworld has been needing to be run like a Buisness for a long time now. It cant survive on yearly donations.

Overall, a lot of people trust Enworld the forum, and the trust Rpgnow the store (remember how many throngs of people defended rpgnow when DTRPG came out?), the question is will that trust in the forum translate to trust in the store? That remains to be seen.

Enworld has a diffrent policy regarding free stuff. DTRPG gave away expensive free pdf's to get attention. But Enworld doesnt NEED that same attention.

It does however need to be marketed properly.

If the ENGS is going to be a success outside the bounds of the Enworld Forum it needs to be advertised correctly.

I do want to commend ENGS however that their marketing policy doesnt seem to have changed. I clicked to the front page of Enworld this morning, and I see 2 adds for Rpgnow along with the EnGS announcement! How fair and balanced is that? Its great.

As for Marketing, I think its obvious that ENGS needs to invest in banner marketing at other major forum websites. Not only that but there are a TON of geek websites out there that gamers read, but may not be aware of enworld all together.

I have a number of suggestions Id be happy to voice. Maybe I'll put them in another post. Or if Morrus rathers i dont, Id be happy to tell him and chris privatly as well.

 

[GMSkarka]

The question is, will developers see this as benefit?

Most likely not, for one big reason.

When considering a site for sales, a publisher has to ask whether or not the site will bring them NEW customers, or simply cannibalize their sales from another source. If it's the latter, it's most often not worth it.

Signing with DTRPG or E23, for example, is often seen as worth it because both stores have regular customers that are not found elsewhere (White Wolf and Steve Jackson Games diehards, who don't frequent other locations). Even with that, however, RPGNow vendors I've spoken with report sales from those locations are often 1/10 to 1/4 of what they're seeing from RPGNow.

According to my company's own sales data, E.N. World members are responsible for roughly 20% of my sales (according to the source links). I'm not convinced that the new site will result in NEW customers, or simply just represent that same number of people, buying from a different location. At this point, it makes more sense for me to sit back for at least a quarter, and see if those customers still come to me, or if they're making the move to the new site.

 

[GlassJaw]

Most likely not, for one big reason.

When considering a site for sales, a publisher has to ask whether or not the site will bring them NEW customers, or simply cannibalize their sales from another source. If it's the latter, it's most often not worth it.

This is the first thing I thought of too when the EN store was annouced. Given the current climate of the RPG industry in general (nevermind the niche pdf market), I wonder if a new store is really needed at all. Of course that's not for me to decide but it's not difficult to realize there is an extremely limited amount of RPG dollars to go around. Things like the AEG layoffs and Stiggybaby closing are tell-tale signs of that.

I'm fairly clueless of the behind-the-scenes business structure between RPG Now, Drive-Thru, and the new EN World store but it seems to me that you are now dividing those limited gaming dollars between 3 stores instead of 2.

As far as the ENGS itself goes, as Wulf mentioned, it certainly didn't catch my eye. Some of the new "features" don't really interest me either. I've had very good luck with both RPRNow and Drive-Thru. I like the layouts of their sites and they are easy to navigate. Unless the new features are revolutionary, I can't see myself using a new store. I mean honestly, we are just talking about the RPG pdf business - certainly not a huge industry by any means. Being a lazy customer myself (especially with regards to pdf's), if one site does the trick, I'd just assume to stick with that one.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Most likely not, for one big reason.

When considering a site for sales, a publisher has to ask whether or not the site will bring them NEW customers, or simply cannibalize their sales from another source. If it's the latter, it's most often not worth it.

Signing with DTRPG or E23, for example, is often seen as worth it because both stores have regular customers that are not found elsewhere (White Wolf and Steve Jackson Games diehards, who don't frequent other locations). Even with that, however, RPGNow vendors I've spoken with report sales from those locations are often 1/10 to 1/4 of what they're seeing from RPGNow.

According to my company's own sales data, E.N. World members are responsible for roughly 20% of my sales (according to the source links). I'm not convinced that the new site will result in NEW customers, or simply just represent that same number of people, buying from a different location. At this point, it makes more sense for me to sit back for at least a quarter, and see if those customers still come to me, or if they're making the move to the new site.

The next question to ask yourself, is

"Is it worth having the site cannibalize those sales. Will I make more profit here, then there?"

I have no idea what deals devs have with RPGnow and DTRPG but ENGS clearly states they take a 20% cut. If thats less then the competitors then, after the 100$ fee is made back in sales, the companies would have more profit from the same sales, wouldnt they?

 

[smokewolf]

The next question to ask yourself, is

"Is it worth having the site cannibalize those sales. Will I make more profit here, then there?"

I have no idea what deals devs have with RPGnow and DTRPG but ENGS clearly states they take a 20% cut. If thats less then the competitors then, after the 100$ fee is made back in sales, the companies would have more profit from the same sales, wouldnt they?

Depending on your contract EN's rates are only 5% less than others. That means you would have to sell $2000 worth of product here that you wouldn't sell elsewhere to cover the $100 before EN's rates become more attractive. Some vendors can do that in a month. However, the simple majority of them might be lucky to make that in a year.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Let me just add the following...

You're very very very right on the topic of new sources of profit and new sales. Enworld needs to bring in NEW buyers as upposed to carving a peice of the same pie.

Enworld is already an established presence on the net. Depending on the point of view, you could argue that the growth is stagnant, or not. People sign up for Enworld ALL the time, but how many of those are people completly new to online pdf's and online stores that havnt been brought here from elsewhere?

I strongly belive that the BEST strategy Enworld could possibly have, is investing liberally in increasing the size of the pie. They must demonstrate an ability to generate NEW sales, instead of divert previous sales, in order for them to be considered a true success.

The best way to do that is to create awareness and to advertise in places nobody has advertised before.

Warehouse23 is the ONLY online store I've seen that buys banner ads at Webcomics.
The online comic industry is nearly as huge as the pdf market. Except they have a diffrent model.
They sell books, of what they offer FOR FREE online, and they are successfull! People BUY. Its an untapped market and It could be the key to increased sales, for everyone.

 

[Arnwyn]

I seems like some pdf publishers have a rather over-inflated sense of value to ENWorld members.

Out of self-interest, sure I'd rather Misfit Studios not lose those sales, but in the bigger picture I'd rather not inconvenience my customers, which means putting more energy into promoting in places where that is less likely to happen and less energy into EnWorld. I'd be shocked if I'm the only publisher who feels this way, and with good reason.

As a consumer, this gets a big "so?" from me.

Really now, you can choose where to promote until you're blue in the face - and you're certainly not hurting this particular consumer any if you "put more energy into promoting in (other) places". All I can say is that this particular consumer doesn't even consider a product if he doesn't see it announced somewhere at ENWorld (whatever the links are in press releases notwithstanding). Publishers are free to ignore ENWorld members and consumers at their own peril.