Need hellp with character creation for an intractible DM
- Thread starter Caeleddin
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Hmm, i would just not play if it is not fun for you.
Also, about the powergaming, there is nothing inherently wrong with munchkins in a rp situation. People always assume that powergamers want to go out and kill big things to watch small numbers become big numbers. This is so incredibly untrue its laughable. I shall take myself as an example. I powergame. Not to the degree that some people do (I dont min/max 7 prestige classes) but i still powergame to a degree. But in a roleplay situation, I am usually participating just as much if not more than the rest of the party. The thing is that in a non-roleplay situation, i like to kick a little ass, is that so wrong?
It is btw extremely possibly to make a roleplay powergamer bard that absolutely dominates the rp parts
That may actually be a fun thing to try if your DM keeps shooting things down. Most (uninformed) people seem to be of the impression that it's quite impossible to powergame a straight bard. Though i must warn you, you will encounter a lot of nagging from your DM when you bluff/diplomacy and gather information your way through his carefully planned out social events. ( "You fail to convince him" "dude, that would have convinced a dragon to bite his own head of" "You just didnt, ok?")
Also, about the powergaming, there is nothing inherently wrong with munchkins in a rp situation. People always assume that powergamers want to go out and kill big things to watch small numbers become big numbers. This is so incredibly untrue its laughable. I shall take myself as an example. I powergame. Not to the degree that some people do (I dont min/max 7 prestige classes) but i still powergame to a degree. But in a roleplay situation, I am usually participating just as much if not more than the rest of the party. The thing is that in a non-roleplay situation, i like to kick a little ass, is that so wrong?
It is btw extremely possibly to make a roleplay powergamer bard that absolutely dominates the rp parts
That may actually be a fun thing to try if your DM keeps shooting things down. Most (uninformed) people seem to be of the impression that it's quite impossible to powergame a straight bard. Though i must warn you, you will encounter a lot of nagging from your DM when you bluff/diplomacy and gather information your way through his carefully planned out social events. ( "You fail to convince him" "dude, that would have convinced a dragon to bite his own head of" "You just didnt, ok?")
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
BoredGremlin, Please tone it down. If you can't participate in this thread in a civil manner you may wish to leave this thread and look at others instead. Any more of this behaviour in this thread will result in a temporary ban. Please don't take the risk.
And although I've singled out BoredGremlin, that goes for anyone else who decides to indulge in personal attacks on other posters here.
Keep it civil, keep it clean.
Regards,
And although I've singled out BoredGremlin, that goes for anyone else who decides to indulge in personal attacks on other posters here.
Keep it civil, keep it clean.
Regards,
Caeleddin,
I am going to try and explain this in friendlier terms. I hope you try and read this in friendlier terms. P.Screwhead also tried to explain this to you, but I will try again.
The problem for some of us, is that your explanations seem contradictory. Let me give some examples.
You say your DM is "picking your class for you". Yet you also show that he has only stopped 3-4 classes. (out of 15)
[You also insinuate that he 'knows' you don't like druid/bard/rogue; like that is his fault]
You say your DM is forcing you to take leadership to have a wife. But your DM is only forcing you to take leadership because your wife is a celestial.
So you say the DM is forcing your wife to be a celestial. But your DM is only doing that because *you* want a child with wings....ie half celestial. So one of you need to be celestial. You give up the child with wings...all other problems go away.
You say your *other* DM 'screwed' you (which I partly agree) and made your initial feats "useless". But Weapon focus, TWF, and Blindsense don't *seem* useless.
You say you are trying to find a solution, but to at least some, it sure sounds like you are trying to one-up your DM, or find a way to tell him to "get bent." Your tone sounds more like you are mad and trying to get even, rather than find a good solution.
You blast me for not offereing solutions. But I suggested leaving the wife/child human. Talking to him about the soulknife cost. Finding a different way of getting to town besides accidental planar travel. Or picking just about any one of the remaining classes to play.
You insult me for calling you a munchkin, when I did no such thing. I did try and explain why certain statements may lead people to assume that. I apologize if that felt like the same thing to you.
You state that the DM doesn't seem to want you to play any class that has options. But he has only stopped 3-4 classes.
You say you want solutions, but for the most part, you ignore the solutions given. You do respond to agree with posts blasting your DM, and to disagree with posts defending your DM.
You say you want a solution, but you keep throwing out ideas about a 'donkey fighter' or a 'half orc commoner' that is meant more to tweak the DM rather than solve the problem. Yes I realize you are half joking, but....
You state the DM reason for banning wiz/sord is weak, but not wanting 50%+ wiz sorc doesn't seem like a weak excuse.
You state that you don't care about possessions. But then complain quite a bit that he will 'charge' the soulknife for his soulblade.
I guess I could go on, but if I haven't made my point by now I will continue to fail.
My point, and I think others, is that there is very little that your DM has actually restricted.
So far, all we *know* is:
No Clerics
No more wiz/sorc in the party
A child with wings means wife is a celestial.
If wife is a celestial, you need to take leadership.
He wants to tweak the half-celestial template.
He wants to charge 'something' for the soulknife blade.
No PrC's
He rolls all new characters scores.
The 12 other 'core+psi' classes are open
We don't know how he is tweaking the template (but he apparently also tweaked the half-fiend, since the LA has been reduced.)
We don't know how much he will charge the soulknife.
I am sorry, but I don't find those restrictions all that restrictive. I don't agree with all of them, but I think they are within reason. I think you need to communicate with him more regarding what is and isn't allowed.
As for powergaming, go back an read your posts. Look for any place that you complain because you can't have it your way; or moreso, places that you come up with 'get bent' solutions for not getting your way. [ex. you decide that if you play barbarian, you will bring your laptop and ignore the game 50% of the time...ie non-combat] Those are the types of things that people percieve as the traits of a power-gamer/munchkin.
.
I am going to try and explain this in friendlier terms. I hope you try and read this in friendlier terms. P.Screwhead also tried to explain this to you, but I will try again.
The problem for some of us, is that your explanations seem contradictory. Let me give some examples.
You say your DM is "picking your class for you". Yet you also show that he has only stopped 3-4 classes. (out of 15)
[You also insinuate that he 'knows' you don't like druid/bard/rogue; like that is his fault]
You say your DM is forcing you to take leadership to have a wife. But your DM is only forcing you to take leadership because your wife is a celestial.
So you say the DM is forcing your wife to be a celestial. But your DM is only doing that because *you* want a child with wings....ie half celestial. So one of you need to be celestial. You give up the child with wings...all other problems go away.
You say your *other* DM 'screwed' you (which I partly agree) and made your initial feats "useless". But Weapon focus, TWF, and Blindsense don't *seem* useless.
You say you are trying to find a solution, but to at least some, it sure sounds like you are trying to one-up your DM, or find a way to tell him to "get bent." Your tone sounds more like you are mad and trying to get even, rather than find a good solution.
You blast me for not offereing solutions. But I suggested leaving the wife/child human. Talking to him about the soulknife cost. Finding a different way of getting to town besides accidental planar travel. Or picking just about any one of the remaining classes to play.
You insult me for calling you a munchkin, when I did no such thing. I did try and explain why certain statements may lead people to assume that. I apologize if that felt like the same thing to you.
You state that the DM doesn't seem to want you to play any class that has options. But he has only stopped 3-4 classes.
You say you want solutions, but for the most part, you ignore the solutions given. You do respond to agree with posts blasting your DM, and to disagree with posts defending your DM.
You say you want a solution, but you keep throwing out ideas about a 'donkey fighter' or a 'half orc commoner' that is meant more to tweak the DM rather than solve the problem. Yes I realize you are half joking, but....
You state the DM reason for banning wiz/sord is weak, but not wanting 50%+ wiz sorc doesn't seem like a weak excuse.
You state that you don't care about possessions. But then complain quite a bit that he will 'charge' the soulknife for his soulblade.
I guess I could go on, but if I haven't made my point by now I will continue to fail.
My point, and I think others, is that there is very little that your DM has actually restricted.
So far, all we *know* is:
No Clerics
No more wiz/sorc in the party
A child with wings means wife is a celestial.
If wife is a celestial, you need to take leadership.
He wants to tweak the half-celestial template.
He wants to charge 'something' for the soulknife blade.
No PrC's
He rolls all new characters scores.
The 12 other 'core+psi' classes are open
We don't know how he is tweaking the template (but he apparently also tweaked the half-fiend, since the LA has been reduced.)
We don't know how much he will charge the soulknife.
I am sorry, but I don't find those restrictions all that restrictive. I don't agree with all of them, but I think they are within reason. I think you need to communicate with him more regarding what is and isn't allowed.
As for powergaming, go back an read your posts. Look for any place that you complain because you can't have it your way; or moreso, places that you come up with 'get bent' solutions for not getting your way. [ex. you decide that if you play barbarian, you will bring your laptop and ignore the game 50% of the time...ie non-combat] Those are the types of things that people percieve as the traits of a power-gamer/munchkin.
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Sounds like the DM should present you with some specific characters or templates you could choose from. If he keeps shooting down everything you want to play after that, then I'd find a different game. Personally, I would not play with that kind of DM. I think that a DM that strict, takes the fun out of the game. What's the use of playing then?
Particle_Man
Explorer
Getting back on topic, I will make another case for the human rogue.
1) They have a ton of skill points. A motherload. Enough that you can even cross-class some stuff. Now usually the problem is that the rogue is expected by the party to do all the "rogue" stuff (sneaking and face and locks/traps and acrobatics and...) but you have an advantage there because there is already a rogue/bard in a party. This gives you a lot more freedom in assigning your skill points the way *you* want.
2) Even where you duplicate the other rogue's abilities (sneak attack, some skills) I doubt the other rogue will mind. 2 rogues makes for easier flanking situations. 2 rogues means that the lock/trap/guard is that much easier to deal with (either via aid another (including social "Face" rolls, remember that con-artists often work in two man teams) or via duplicate attempts). 2 rogues means 2 good scouts (one to get back to the rest of the party and tell them what is going on, and one to maintain observation on the "bad guys").
In short, an extra rogue usually is a boon to the party.
You have said you don't like rogues, but I would say give a rogue a shot in this campaign (I would suggest you save your background ideas for another DM). The other rogue/bard in the party gives you so much freedom to customize your rogue's skill selection, that I think you will find something you like.
If nothing else, Use Magic Device eventually has your Rogue making a very good "back up spellcaster" with wands, staffs, scrolls, etc.
Plus, there is a normal feat in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that lets you reroll 1's on sneak attack damage!
Anyhow, when life hands you lemons, make lemonade. Treat this, not as a restriction, but as an opportunity. You can play the super-skill point guy with no "party requirement" on where the points "have" to go. that gives you, at level 11, 126 skill points if your int is only 10! That leaves a lot of room for customization!
Anyhow, you will have to make your own choices, but I would suggest that you give the human rogue a shot. I know that I had a lot of fun with mine, and I didn't expect to at first.
1) They have a ton of skill points. A motherload. Enough that you can even cross-class some stuff. Now usually the problem is that the rogue is expected by the party to do all the "rogue" stuff (sneaking and face and locks/traps and acrobatics and...) but you have an advantage there because there is already a rogue/bard in a party. This gives you a lot more freedom in assigning your skill points the way *you* want.
2) Even where you duplicate the other rogue's abilities (sneak attack, some skills) I doubt the other rogue will mind. 2 rogues makes for easier flanking situations. 2 rogues means that the lock/trap/guard is that much easier to deal with (either via aid another (including social "Face" rolls, remember that con-artists often work in two man teams) or via duplicate attempts). 2 rogues means 2 good scouts (one to get back to the rest of the party and tell them what is going on, and one to maintain observation on the "bad guys").
In short, an extra rogue usually is a boon to the party.
You have said you don't like rogues, but I would say give a rogue a shot in this campaign (I would suggest you save your background ideas for another DM). The other rogue/bard in the party gives you so much freedom to customize your rogue's skill selection, that I think you will find something you like.
If nothing else, Use Magic Device eventually has your Rogue making a very good "back up spellcaster" with wands, staffs, scrolls, etc.
Plus, there is a normal feat in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that lets you reroll 1's on sneak attack damage!
Anyhow, when life hands you lemons, make lemonade. Treat this, not as a restriction, but as an opportunity. You can play the super-skill point guy with no "party requirement" on where the points "have" to go. that gives you, at level 11, 126 skill points if your int is only 10! That leaves a lot of room for customization!
Anyhow, you will have to make your own choices, but I would suggest that you give the human rogue a shot. I know that I had a lot of fun with mine, and I didn't expect to at first.
Seeten said:
As a DM i get a little annoyed by DM bashing being a favorite hobby for a lot of people. Many players seem to assume its a DM's job to meet all thier desires and totally ignore everything he wants. DMs work very hard, spending many hours each week in between games setting things up and trying to make them work a certain way. Usually after work, often when we are tired, or sick, or just dont feel like sitting down and writing an adventure for everyone. But we do it anyway because the players are counting on us being prepared. Players come and play a game a few hours a week. DMs spend hours and hours setting up that game. Then not really playing it the way the players are. We know the story, we know the traps. There is little surprise in it for the DM. We get our enjoyment out of watching the players reactions to all of our hard work.
Most people can acknowledge that you cant please everyone all the time. Or even most of the people most of the time. And if a certain houserule doesnt please a player, or a certain adventure doesnt use thier talents fully, well thats okay. Most gamers realize how hard a DM works and that their character will probably have more to do the next game.
But some players, when something that works for everyone else puts a hair up thier butt. They decide to piss, moan, whine and insult the whole group.
The OP allready called his group sheep, and his DM a control freak. Then said everyone else is pretty happy with the way things are going. So if the whole group is happy with something, and one person is complaining. Its fair to assume that person complaining is the one in the wrong. That that person wants the whole world to revolve around them, and everything to work thier way. And when it doesnt, its suddenly broken. Even though everyone else is happy with it.
Thats what irks me. Players who want the whole thing to go thier way, ignoring everyone else at table and insulting anyone in the group who disagrees with thier desires. Like its the DM's job to sit around all week planning a game just for them. The other players dont have to like it, and the DM sure doesnt have to like it all. He doesnt have to enjoy the session in the slightest. Its just his job to set up a game for this one players enjoyment.
And when that doesnt happen, here comes the DM bashing. Phaw. Its a wonder any DM is kind enough to play with people like that.
Plane Sailing - Acknowledged. I will just ignore the morons from now on. I would also like to ask you to pull them from the thread as they are doing nothing but being stupid, nasty, and trying to hijack it for their own nefarious purposes.
Lord Sloth - Idiots that think that anyone not spending half their feats/points in useless skills are powergamers are a total waste of time, in my opinion. I refuse to even play with them as both DM and player. There is nothing wrong with making a character that has points only in things he is going to use or thinks he is going to use. You don't need Perform (Singing) to join in a sing-along and you definitely don't have to put points in it in lieu of something better for your character mechanics-wise even if your character likes to sing. I insist on my players doing the best they can with what they've got (usually rolled stats is the starting point) without the added distractions of a Fighter putting ranks in Perform because the player would like a Fighter that likes singing. I will let him sing all he wants. This is not saying that I disallow it. I merely will want to make sure that the player understands that he is weakening his character for a purpose that he can easily cover RP-wise.
I have no problems with that at all. Nobody wants a Fighter with 8 Str, Con and Dex, and 20 gazillion in Cha. Not only the player, but the entire party! And only a sadistic DM that LOVES to kill off his players as easily and cheaply as possible will allow that. This falls so under the DM out to get Players catergory it isn't even funny anymore.
I find that DMs that frequently do nothing but think about themselves and moan about how much they "sacrifice" for the game end up like this. They get adversarial when the players don't do as they would like them to. They get uppity when the players make suggestions. They spent hours on making the game, damnit! How DARE the players contradict them! These are the poorest DMs in the world. I consider them lower than the worst munchkin. At least munchkins have limits on how much they "powergame". These DMs have no limits because their word is God in their games.
As someone said, you see these signs in your DM, it is boiling seas, waking dead sort of alarm bells. Start running for the hills.
Shellman - It's ok. Thanee and others have come up with very good character archetype suggestions and I have forwarded them to the DM. He seems to like the Psionics ones as they would be something new to his campaign, so hopefully, I will get approval tonight at the orientation session.
I was thinking of quitting as well. And then the Three Stooges showed up and made me realise that, hey! My DM ain't that bad after all! He may be a bit loopy in the head, and make weak excuses when he run into problems, and have wierd notions of classes, but at least he isn't as adversarial as some. He is definitely not as arrogant as them. And he definitely don't make false assumptions and start punishing people because of it.
Particle Man - I'll certainly consider it if my current character type falls through. Thanks for that.
Lord Sloth - Idiots that think that anyone not spending half their feats/points in useless skills are powergamers are a total waste of time, in my opinion. I refuse to even play with them as both DM and player. There is nothing wrong with making a character that has points only in things he is going to use or thinks he is going to use. You don't need Perform (Singing) to join in a sing-along and you definitely don't have to put points in it in lieu of something better for your character mechanics-wise even if your character likes to sing. I insist on my players doing the best they can with what they've got (usually rolled stats is the starting point) without the added distractions of a Fighter putting ranks in Perform because the player would like a Fighter that likes singing. I will let him sing all he wants. This is not saying that I disallow it. I merely will want to make sure that the player understands that he is weakening his character for a purpose that he can easily cover RP-wise.
I have no problems with that at all. Nobody wants a Fighter with 8 Str, Con and Dex, and 20 gazillion in Cha. Not only the player, but the entire party! And only a sadistic DM that LOVES to kill off his players as easily and cheaply as possible will allow that. This falls so under the DM out to get Players catergory it isn't even funny anymore.
I find that DMs that frequently do nothing but think about themselves and moan about how much they "sacrifice" for the game end up like this. They get adversarial when the players don't do as they would like them to. They get uppity when the players make suggestions. They spent hours on making the game, damnit! How DARE the players contradict them! These are the poorest DMs in the world. I consider them lower than the worst munchkin. At least munchkins have limits on how much they "powergame". These DMs have no limits because their word is God in their games.
As someone said, you see these signs in your DM, it is boiling seas, waking dead sort of alarm bells. Start running for the hills.
Shellman - It's ok. Thanee and others have come up with very good character archetype suggestions and I have forwarded them to the DM. He seems to like the Psionics ones as they would be something new to his campaign, so hopefully, I will get approval tonight at the orientation session.
I was thinking of quitting as well. And then the Three Stooges showed up and made me realise that, hey! My DM ain't that bad after all! He may be a bit loopy in the head, and make weak excuses when he run into problems, and have wierd notions of classes, but at least he isn't as adversarial as some. He is definitely not as arrogant as them. And he definitely don't make false assumptions and start punishing people because of it.
Particle Man - I'll certainly consider it if my current character type falls through. Thanks for that.
atom crash
First Post
Caeleddin, dude, that's no way to play nice.
I agree with Particle Man. Play a human rogue. Maybe with a level or two in fighter for the feats and BAB boost at the cost of 1d6 sneak attack and a special ability. Make it based on ranged attacks to take advantage of Dex with both classes. You'll have a boatload of skill points and a decent selection of feats.
As far as all the back-story and "cosmetic" stuff, I'd seriously advise you sit down with your DM and have him help you hash out the details. Make it a shared effort. Compromise is the best way to get you something you'll enjoy playing (or at least that you don't hate) that he approves. A continued power play between you and the DM is going to net nothing but heartache and bad feelings. If I was in your position, I'd say, "Look, I'm having trouble making something I like and you'll approve, so can you give me a hand?" And if he couldn't accommodate that concession, it's really not worth it. I'd kindly thank him for his time and say I'll catch the next game cuz this one isn't going to be good for me.
If you can't enjoy playing your character, there's really no sense in playing that game. But there's also no sense in burning bridges.
I agree with Particle Man. Play a human rogue. Maybe with a level or two in fighter for the feats and BAB boost at the cost of 1d6 sneak attack and a special ability. Make it based on ranged attacks to take advantage of Dex with both classes. You'll have a boatload of skill points and a decent selection of feats.
As far as all the back-story and "cosmetic" stuff, I'd seriously advise you sit down with your DM and have him help you hash out the details. Make it a shared effort. Compromise is the best way to get you something you'll enjoy playing (or at least that you don't hate) that he approves. A continued power play between you and the DM is going to net nothing but heartache and bad feelings. If I was in your position, I'd say, "Look, I'm having trouble making something I like and you'll approve, so can you give me a hand?" And if he couldn't accommodate that concession, it's really not worth it. I'd kindly thank him for his time and say I'll catch the next game cuz this one isn't going to be good for me.
If you can't enjoy playing your character, there's really no sense in playing that game. But there's also no sense in burning bridges.
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