Need help calculating ECL, CR and Level Adjustment of a BBEG

[RigaMortus2]

I need some help calculating ECL, CR and Level adjustments... Here is what I have...

I have a monster as the base creature that is CR 4, 6HD and LA +4

I want to add the Lich template to that, which increases the CR by +2 and the LA by another +4.

There are no class levels involved.

I calculate this as CR 6 (seems waaaay too low), LA +8 (what does this mean to me exactly? Does this affect the hit points and bonus feats in any way?) and the ECL ???

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[gnfnrf]

OK, first, a quick glossary.

CR: The measure of a foe's challenge to a party of PCs.

ECL: The measure of the relative benefits of playing a monstrous creature, compared to a normal classed PC.

LA: The amount added to a creature's HD+Class Level to calculate its ECL.

You are making a foe, here, so all you need worry about is the CR. ECL and LA are for balancing PCs, which this creature is not.

So, thus far, a CR 4 creature with a CR +2 template would be CR 6. That is, an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party.

HOWEVER, the Lich template requires a caster level of 11. I can't think of, nor can I imagine, any CR 4 creature with a caster level of 11. In fact, I can confidently say that such a creature would be completely broken. The +2 CR adjustment on the Lich template will only be appropriate if the creature meets the prerequisites properly. I'm not surprised that this creature comes out too powerful for CR 6.

So, stop and check the lich template, since I'm guessing this creature can't exist.

--
gnfnrf

 

[gnfnrf]

Sorry, to be more specific on your later questions.

Level Adjustment +8 plus 6 HD means that this creature would be appropriate AS A PC in a 14th level party. However, this is not what party would be appropriate to FIGHT the creature, since certain abilities affect LA and CR very differently. Note, however, that specifically as a lich, this creature has something wrong, see previous post.

--
gnfnrf

 

[RigaMortus2]

So I need to pump 11 Wizard levels in there... Got it... Thanks!

 

[Drowbane]

So I need to pump 11 Wizard levels in there... Got it... Thanks!

Making it a CR 17

 

[boolean]

So I need to pump 11 Wizard levels in there... Got it... Thanks!

Or, give it 7 wizard* levels and the Practised Spellcaster feat.

(*Or sorcerer, or druid, or cleric, or bard, or whatever. There's nothing in the Lich template that requires a particular type of spellcasting.)

Making it a CR 17 :-D

I'd assume the first six levels of wizard were non-associated.

So, with 11 wizard levels:
CR 4 (Base) +3 (6 non-associated levels) +5 (levels 7-11 count as associated) +2 (lich template) = CR 14 total.

Using 7 wizard levels + Practised Spellcaster:
CR 4 (Base) +3 (6 non-associated levels) +1 (level 7 counts as associated) +2 (lich template) = CR 10 total.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Or, give it 7 wizard* levels and the Practised Spellcaster feat.

Oh, is that doable? I like that idea...

FWIW, we are playing AE so I would most likely make him a Magister. Since I am GM I would have to house rule the PS feat. No biggie, not going strictly by the book anyway.

Thanks for the answers and advice all!

 

[eamon]

And you should probably do a reality check after the fact and see how it compares with other creatures of a similar CR too. The guidelines for estimating CR are rather rough if you do complex things. That way you can tweak monster or CR so it's more in line with normal encounters.

 

[Arkhandus]

LA and ECL aren't important for your BBEG. Unless he's going to adventure with the PCs in disguise or something for a long stretch of time, and even then you can easily just handle the BBEG's advancement arbitrarily to remain a viable threat to the PCs. If he's the BBEG he's surely got schemes and machinations underway, and various nefarious tasks to attend to when he isn't directly busy spying on or dealing with the PCs.

And yeah, as others have mentioned.......Liches are supposed to be capable spellcasters beforehand. It takes powerful magic to become a lich, and the template's features (and especially it's Challenge Rating!!!!!) are based on the assumption that you're adding it to a mid-level wizard, sorcerer, or cleric. It is NOT a template to slap onto some critter with a few measely hit dice or less.

So; slap on some spellcaster class levels and adjust the CR accordingly. Note also the rules in the DMG or MM (I forget which; you can just check the online SRD anyway) about associative and nonassociative class levels and CR (basically, making an ogre into a spellcaster doesn't fit so well as making a drow into a spellcaster, for instance, so they'd get different amounts of CR increase from wizard levels, frex).