Need help! Creating a spare character: Axe Fighter theme

[nittanytbone]

At level 6 using elite array with 16 str, this fellow has AC 19 or 23 (depending on if his tower shield is out) without any magic gear or buffs, and is +25 to hit for 1d10+16 damage for the first hit (using true strike to fuel a maxed out power attack). He can use any arcane wand or scroll and many divine wands. That's using only the core books. By level 9 you're aiming to enter Dwarven Defender, although it could be done earlier if you wanted to.

Irresistable Charge and Powerful Defense Dwarven Fighter

Level 1 - Ranger 1 (Dwarf, Track, Power Attack, Favored Enemy Giants)
Level 2 - Wizard 1 (Scribe Scroll; Weasel Familiar for +2 reflex saves; Spells True Strike, Featherfall, Endure Elements, Flare, Det Magic, Light)
Level 3 - Fighter 1 (Toughness, Cleave)
Level 4 - Fighter 2 (Weap Focus: Dwarven Waraxe)
Level 5 - Fighter 3
Level 6 - Fighter 4 (Weap Spec: Dwarven Waraxe, FEAT OF CHOICE -- Leadership?)
Level 7 - Fighter 5
Level 8 - Fighter 6 (Mobility)
Level 9 - Dwarven Defender 1 (Endurance)
Level 10+ - Dwarven Defender

Why front load ranger instead of just starting up the fighter tree? For the tons of skill points, of course! A dwarf with 12 int is looking at 28 skill points as a 1st level ranger vs 12 as a fighter. I like characters with some versatility and a wide range of useful skills is one way to do that. You get a nice boost to your reflex save. Plus, the favored enemy of a classic dwarven bad guy (which your racial bonuses complement nicely) is gravy, as is the bonus Track Feat and the ability to use a wand of CLW as its on the Ranger spell list.

The level of wizard hurts your hit points, but it boosts that all essential will save early on and it gives a nice +2 boost to your reflex save through your familiar as well. You can complete a few skill synergies from first level here as well. The use of spells that have no somatic component such as True Strike, Flare, and Hold Portal or which have a long duration such as Endure Elements complements nicely with heavy dwarven armor. As you're headed for Dwarven Defender and have to take Toughness anyway, that makes the low HP of this level a lot more manageable.

 

[Alzrius]

Not a good idea. Rule of thumb: +1 attack = +2 damage. +1 damage for -2 on attacks is a bad trade.

You're holding that a +1 bonus to the attack roll is worth 2 points of damage, which, according to Goodman Games Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide can be mathematically proven to be false (see Table 3-1 on page 15).

For the same reason he'll usually want to avoid dual-wielding one-handed weapons.

Given that we've already proven the above statement untrue, this seems to also be false. Given that the orc's natural Strength bonus counteracts the inappropriate weapon penalty, let's look at the dual-weapon penalties. Presuming he takes the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he'll take a -4 penalty for wielding two one-handed weapons. However, also presuming he's taken Greater Weapon Focus (as I mentioned above), then that's reduced to -2. Have the greataxes be masterwork, and it's merely -1 to each attack. That seems pretty good when he's then getting two attacks at 1d10+4 (Greater Weapon Specialization) plus Strength bonus.

Attack bonus can be converted to damage with Power Attack.

Power Attack is certainly a viable option, but the above build negates almost all of the penalties inherent in that fighting style, and maximizes the potential damage; likewise, having two (or more, at higher levels) attack rolls increases the overall chance of hitting, making up for the reduced to-hit bonuses (something that Power Attack can't claim).

 

[Iku Rex]

Charge!

This character really comes together at level 6 (Leap Attack), so I'll advance him one level.

Orc Brb2/Ftr4/

Feats:
EWP: Dwarven Waraxe, WF: Dwarven Waraxe, Power Attack, Powerful Charge (ECS), Greater Poweful Charge (ECS), Leap Attack (CAdv)

Key equipment: Rhino Hide armor (5165gp), Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (4000gp)

Str = 17 +1 lv4 +4 Orc +2 Item = 24 (+7) (+9 when raging)

Damage on a Charge, raging, max power attack (-6):

1d10 dwarven waraxe
+ 13 1.5 x Str Mod
+ 24 Extra damage from Power Attack x2*
+ 2d6 Powerful Charge feat
+ 2d6 Rhino Hide Armor

Total damage = 1d10+37+4d6 (avg. 56,5)

*Technically it's 3x, but based on the CAdv errata I think the likely intent is 2x.

Future feats to consider:
Improved Initiative - Get them while they're flat-footed
Improved Buckler Defense - You'll need AC, unless you hold out for an animated shield.
Extra Rage (CW) - Once/day is not much.

Future equipment to consider:
Armbands of Might (CAdv, 4100) - +2 on Str based checks and +2 extra damage if -2 power attack.
Valorous weapon ability (+1, Unapproachable East) - double damage on a charge (!). (Sort of 3.25.)
Ring of Jumping/Improved Jumping or Boots of Striding and Springing - Hoppity-hopp!

Future Advancement:
The character is all set for Exotic Weapon Master (get Uncanny Blow). Beyond that I'm not sure OTTOMH. (Occult Slayer maybe, if you can scrounge up the skill rank prerequisites.)

 

[Iku Rex]

You're holding that a +1 bonus to the attack roll is worth 2 points of damage, which, according to Goodman Games Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide can be mathematically proven to be false (see Table 3-1 on page 15).)

Well, Iku Rex's Years of experience number-crunching DnD character damage output supports me. And I'm afraid that's a source that beats your obscure cite every time.

Edit: It just occured to me that you were talking about two-weapon fighting. In that case the rule of thumb still stands, but it applies to both weapons combined. So, you're trading 2 damage for -2 to hit, which is still a bad deal.

Given that the orc's natural Strength bonus counteracts the inappropriate weapon penalty,

The penalty is still there.

let's look at the dual-weapon penalties. Presuming he takes the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he'll take a -4 penalty for wielding two one-handed weapons. However, also presuming he's taken Greater Weapon Focus (as I mentioned above), then that's reduced to -2.

No, it isn't! The penalty is still there! :\

Have the greataxes be masterwork, and it's merely -1 to each attack. That seems pretty good when he's then getting two attacks at 1d10+4 (Greater Weapon Specialization) plus Strength bonus.

Damage per hit is not very important. The important number is average damage per attack. At what level(s) do you claim that your character concept will be superior to a straight up, no-nonsense, two-handed fighter? (Or, for that matter, a standard two-weapon fighter.)

 

[Shard O'Glase]

why in gods name would anyone use an axe when the spiked chain exists

I'm a big fanboy of this weapon, raw power nope, but it can do everything.

But fighter type, race dont know any funky ones, how about a warfarged though.

feats in the chain
two weapon style,
improved unarmed comnbat
imprved grapple
power attack
cleave
quick draw
weapon focus great axe
weapon focus hand axe
weapon spec great axe
weapon spec hand axe
point blank shot
rapid shot
precise shot

personally I like jumping people, grappling them and then beating the snot out of them with a light weapon, hey what's this; A hand axe of DOOM. When its not feasable to grapple them you use your greataxe and hack through them. Or two weapon style/throwing style them to death.

Is this great, probably not on the powergame level. I just found a dwarf version of this lots of fun. It was versatile and yet still solid in combat.

 

[Alzrius]

Well, Iku Rex's Years of experience number-crunching DnD character damage output supports me. And I'm afraid that's a source that beats your obscure cite every time.

Edit: It just occured to me that you were talking about two-weapon fighting. In that case the rule of thumb still stands, but it applies to both weapons combined. So, you're trading 2 damage for -2 to hit, which is still a bad deal.

I've already proven your rule of thumb false (that is, a +1 to hit bonus doesn't equate 2 points of damage dealt on a successful hit), so I'm not at all sure what you're saying here.

The penalty is still there.

No, it isn't! The penalty is still there! :\

No one is saying the penalty isn't there. What I'm saying is that the build I suggested by itself compensates for almost all of the penalties it brings.

Damage per hit is not very important. The important number is average damage per attack.

Actually, what's most important is average damage dealt over the course of the round. You do more damage with two attacks that have a slightly lower average damage than with one attack that does a little more.

At what level(s) do you claim that your character concept will be superior to a straight up, no-nonsense, two-handed fighter? (Or, for that matter, a standard two-weapon fighter.)

If you want a straight-on comparison, you'll need to be a little more specific about what exactly I'm comparing it to.

But let's run a quick comparison. An orc Fighter 12, Strength 14 (10 + racial bonus), is using two small masterwork greataxes. He has the Weapon Focus feat tree, and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree.

Making a full attack action, he'll attack like so: +11/+6/+1 (1d10+6/x3, small masterwork greataxe) and +11/+6/+1 (1d10+5/x3, small masterwork greataxe). Given that a successful hit with the first will deal an average damage of 11 hit points (and that's per hit), and the second will deal an average damage of 10 hit points, he has a high damage potential.

Now, a human Fighter 12, Strength 10 (no racial bonuses) is using a single masterwork greataxe. He has the Weapon Focus feat tree (there's no point in giving him Two-Weapon Fighting). He attacks like so as a full attack: +15/+10/+5 (1d12+4/x3, masterwork greataxe). Per attack, he'll do an average damage of 10 hit points.

Finally, a human Fighter 12, Strength 10 (no racial bonuses) is using a masterwork longsword and a masterwork short sword. He has the Weapon Focus feat tree for his longsword only, and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree. His full attack looks like such: +13/+8/+3 (1d8+4/19-20, masterwork longsword) and +11/+6/+1 (1d6/19-20, masterwork short sword). With the longsword, he'll do an average damage of 8 hit points per hit, and with the short sword, 3 points per hit.

Now, while the single-weapon human fighter has the greatest chance of hitting out of all of them, he has less ability to do damage overall. His average damage is less than half of the orc fighter's, and for only a 20% greater chance of hitting (the +4 more to hit full attack he has than the orc).

Now, comparing the dual-weapon human to the orc. The dual-wielding human suffers from his inability to put his enhancing feats (the Weapon Focus feat tree) towards both weapons. Only one weapon has a greater chance of hitting, being 10% (a +2 greater to hit chance for the longsword than the orc has on his attack), but is doing less damage. That's not a bad trade-off, but he suffers for it with the short sword. That has exactly equal chances to hit as the orc, but then does less than a third the damage.

Critical hits aren't taken into account, but given that they only come in to play 5-10% of the time (not counting creatures immune to them, fortification armor, etc.) it's easy enough to write them off.

Overall, all things being equal, the human fighters have a slightly better chance of landing their hits, but will do less damage when they do. The orc fighter gets a greater amount of damage, with an average to hit bonus only slightly behind his human counterpart, virtually guaranteeing he'll do more damage.

If there's a lesson to be learned here, it's that raising your to hit bonus is relatively easy. Feats, Strength score, BAB, enhancement bonuses, spells, etc. all make it easier to hit, and are relatively easy to come by. The hard part is raising the actual damage dealt on a successful hit, and to a lesser degree, increasing the number of attacks per round. It's almost always favorable to trade base attack bonus for increase damage and/or number of attacks per round, because attack penalties are easily recouped from other bonuses, whereas greater damage and attacks/round results in a much higher average damage dealt over the course of the round. The orc fighter listed above strikes a nice balance in terms of how much BAB he sacrifies for using high-damage weapons and increasing the amount of attacks per round.

 

[Nightfall]

Why no spiked chain? Because I said so!

Warforged is a possibly Shardy.

*let's Al and Rex duke it out some* I'll keep on eye on this guys but thanks.

Rex,

I'll keep that one in mind.

Nitty,

Hm...not sure about the wizard thing but I'll keep it all in mind in any case. *isn't sure he'd want to do Dwarven defender but exotic weapon master or Dervish might be an option*

 

[solates]

Said 5...
Werebear paladin(to match your friends githzerais ecl 2 race with an ecl 5 template)
hybrid
Weapon focus greataxe
Improved init

Done.

For any melee class the werebear, weretiger templates offer the most omgness of any pc eligible races(in this case a template but it does apply).

while in ebberon the wereraces are almost extinct it does not mean its not a viable race for you to pick(just stay away from the silver flame church).

And if you just wanted to make him cry make a weretiger rogue with martial prof greataxe.
Almost always going to win init, and with pounce can make a full move action and still get a full attack action in on the first round of combat. This means as soon as you start getting 2+ attacks that you will have most fights over in the first round since as long as your enemy is flatfooted each attack is considered a sneak attack.

Melee damage wise nothing comes even close to a weretiger rogue pouncing with all 4natural attacks(2 claws, bite, if bite hits you can rake). Yeah base damage is not that much but when you start adding 5d6 or more to each attack it calcs up to stupid amounts of damage quickly. Amulet of greater natural weaponry- and your pretty much set.

Solates

 

[Drowbane]

Um, hold up... someone in the party is Gestalt and the rest are not!? Or did I misread that?

Anyways...
Warforged Bbn 1 / Fi 4

Whirling Frenzy variant.

k, I'll assume 32pt buy.
10 Str: 16
4 Dex: 12
13 Con: 20
5 Int: 13
- Wis: 6
- Cha: 6

Feats ~
1st: Adamantine Body
2nd: Power Attack
3rd: Extra Rage, Cleave
5th: Great Cleave

Skills ~
Eh, who cares right?

This build is a mix of High Dmg potential, and High HP. Ideally, you should use a Falchion... But if you must use a sub-optimal weapon, Greataxe is good too.

 

[Felix]

Given that a successful hit with the first will deal an average damage of 11 hit points (and that's per hit), and the second will deal an average damage of 10 hit points, he has a high damage potential.

Per attack, he'll do an average damage of 10 hit points.

he'll do an average damage of 8 hit points per hit, and with the short sword, 3 points per hit.

Every time here you assume that the character hits. That's not average damage per attack; what you've looked at is average damage per hit, which is a much different animal.