D&D 5E Need help on how to handle a huge fight

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
The OP's setup sounds like the climactic defenders' battle from Red Hand of Doom. I recommend you search on that title and look for an 'Enhancing...' thread or a description of somebody else's playthrough.

I agree that the PCs should be treated like a 'Special Forces' unit, going on missions against high-value targets, not fighting 1001 Minions In A Field.

P.S. The 'one massive archer volley' tactic does work and is fun to reverse-surprise braggadocious enemy fliers. Have your archers "run away in confusion" (actually taking shelter as squads) and snipe at the flier afterwards. It will go crazy and get more hurt trying to deal with dozens of quote anti-aircraft guns unquote.
 

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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
{snip}

P.S. The 'one massive archer volley' tactic does work and is fun to reverse-surprise braggadocious enemy fliers. Have your archers "run away in confusion" (actually taking shelter as squads) and snipe at the flier afterwards. It will go crazy and get more hurt trying to deal with dozens of quote anti-aircraft guns unquote.

Again, not if the enemy attacks at night when it is "dark". Then 95%+ of the arrow attacks will be with disadvantage due to sight and/or fear. If the dragons attack during the day, they deserve to lose.
 

Hatox

Explorer
Of course the dragons have an advantage at night, but I never like it when people say "if you dont play the enemy in exactly this way, it deserves to loose". Like yes lets say the dragon is like "huh that archer volley would screw me, I should attack at night" then I would assume the commanders are probably like "dragons see in the dark, they will probably attack in the night, set up a few clerics to cast daylight into the sky if the dragon tries to fly in".

So I could say "If the defenders arent smart enough to use magic to light up the sky against attackers with darkvision, they deserve to loose." Which would lead into "If the dragon doesnt predict this, and has people to dispell the lightsources, it deserves to loose" etc.
 
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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Hey, if you come up with some brilliant strategy where it is better for the dragons to attack during the day, have at it.

I'm just going off of the information you provide. You start by saying the dragons are ancient, then you say they know the type so will have gear/magic to aid against the breath (antitoxins and spells only last 1 hour, so they will have to spend their first actions on those), and you say one only has half HP, etc. From your OP, a party of 15th-level PCs against two ancient dragons is most likely a TPK. We had a party of 7 5th-level PCs (not including the ranger's animal companion) against a young black dragon, and that was nearly a TPK.

300-400 defenders.... so how many are clerics? How many are level 5 and can cast Daylight? BTW, the range is only 60 ft, so if they do cast it in an area the dragon is attacking, they are right on the front line and I hope they survive the first breath attacks. They won't be lighting up the night that much along a bunch of city walls. So once daylights are cast, the dragons can attack areas where they aren't affected.

I suppose the city could have low-level clerics spending hours casting Light repeated on arrows over and over in anticipating the attack. But again they won't know the dragons are there until it is too late. After all, light only sheds as much light as a torch anyway.

The dragons don't need to dispel the light arrows. If they get hit by one, they can fly to safety and have it removed (or do it themselves), even buried it if needed, and then return to the fray. Dragons can use hit and run tactics, and the archers will also be busy firing against the horde of monsters as well. Anyone the dragons kill, most won't be replaced, so one night they attack and kill a hundred or so, then pull back. A couple nights later, they do the same, but with full HP (well, if the one is a simulacrum that one shouldn't risk injury until the final assault).

But, yes, to your point, a dragon most certainly should anticipate spells against it as well and should be prepared. A creature that has lived several hundred years won't likely risk its life unless it knows the odds are heavily in its favor.

I don't know how long you've DMed or played but you asked for advice about running the battle. As a DM for nearly 40 years I offered advice on how the dragons should fight given my experience. Like it or not, that's how I see it. But I don't like it when I offer advice and others get offended by it. The point is simple: both sides should do everything to help themselves and from your statements about how much arrows would do, etc. it didn't sound like you were. Since you don't have to lay out everything, that is fine, but then I think you should expect responses based on what you do tell people.

They're your dragons, so play them however you want. I'm done with it.
 

Zio_the_dark

The dark one :)
@dnd4vr you're probably right about archer damage, simulating 400 archers with disadvantage I get between 4 and 12 hits...
Without disadvantage between 45 and 65 hits!

Stats
Ac 22 for dragon
Archer at +4 (2 dex, 2 proficiency)

Edit: with ac 21 a bit more hits with disadvantage but still not much (10-25)
 

Oofta

Legend
Much like @dnd4vr I think this would be a TPK if I were running it.

I'll just add in something that most people don't think about. An ancient red dragon can carry at least (depending on how you read it) 3,600 pounds. Nearly 2 tons. Double that if you consider them quadrupeds.

All they have to do is bomb the castle from the darkness with boulders to do significant damage. Add in strafing runs at night.

A dragon that is at least 800 years old is not going to be stupid.
 

Quartz

Hero
Much like @dnd4vr I think this would be a TPK if I were running it.

If the party can fly and separate the dragons, they've got a chance. Remember that they only have to drive off the dragons, not kill them.

@dnd4vr you're probably right about archer damage, simulating 400 archers with disadvantage I get between 4 and 12 hits...
Without disadvantage between 45 and 65 hits!

Remember that it only takes one source of Advantage to negate all sources of Disadvantage.
 

Oofta

Legend
If the party can fly and separate the dragons, they've got a chance. Remember that they only have to drive off the dragons, not kill them.

Ancient red dragons have a flight speed of 80 ft. I don't know of any way to get a flight speed that fast. Even if they cast Fly at a high enough level, that's only 60 ft of movement and it's duration is 10 minutes. So fly within 90 ft of the party, use your breath weapon, fly off. Keep flying out of range/sight until your breath weapon recharges or just wait 10 minutes. Return and repeat until the party is dead.

There are probably ways of stopping movement, but that's where legendary resistance comes in.

This might not be a TPK if I were running it, after all PCs sometimes pull rabbits out of their a...um...hat. I just think a TPK is likely. You're fighting creatures that have been around for centuries. I would not have them go kamikaze.

Now, if they land or don't keep their distance the party may well win. I just wouldn't run them that way.
 

Zio_the_dark

The dark one :)
Remember that it only takes one source of Advantage to negate all sources of Disadvantage.
Well right but you need a source of advantage for 400 of them. And i told the figure with no disadvantage too ^^

Edit: A bit more stats (mean done on 1000 rolls for each situation using mersenne twister as prng)
With 400 archers (Att +4, dmg 1d8+2) (all shot at the same time and all with adv/disadv or nothing)

vs AC 21:
Normal: 589 damage, 60 hits, 20 crits
Disadvantage: 106 damage, 15 hits, 1 crit
Advantage: 1072 damage, 105 hits, 39 crits

vs AC 22:
Normal: 461 damage, 40 hits, 20 crits
Disadvantage: 62 damage, 8 hits, 1 crit
Advantage: 860 damage, 72 hits, 39 crits

Note: for crit I count max damage (as in 4th edition)

Edit2: so against a swarm of archer even with disadvantage the dragon will probably get hurt ^^
 
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Hatox

Explorer
To be fair I did ask how to run a huge fight, not how to play the dragons, it was actually someone else mentioning that the dragons would be screwed, and I just did some maths based on that post.
Also I wasnt offended, like I said, I just dont like it when people have the "the way you play the enemy is not optimal, therefore its stupid" mentality.
I do like the ideas, I inteded the dragons to attack at night, since nearly all of their army has darkvision as well. Also the light example was...exactly that, an example, that if you think about a combat for hours you probably find x ways to abuse the enemy and y ways to counter that. If my question was "Is an ancient dragon screwed against a huge amount of archers" it would´ve also been perfectly answered^^
 

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