Need help with balancing a race

DungeonDragon

First Post
(A member suggested I post this question here)

Hey, I'm new here. Sorry if I'm not supposed to start a thread, but I didn't know where else to put this, so if the admins want to delete this thread, that's fine. I would just like to know where I could post this alternatively :)
I am creating a new campaign for myself and a few friends, and the theme is basically the d&d (3.5) world, but on a DIFFERENT continent. So there are a bunch of new races I have had to make, as well as new classes, cultures, legends, etc. The most difficult thing to do is to balance a race or a class, at least for me. Some people seem to think that a balanced race or class is a weak race or class, whereas I believe it can be balanced by great bonuses and equal penalties (as long as the scales meet, right?). But any kind of balance is good, I think. Anyway now that that is out of the way, let me get to the point of this thread. I have a race (two, technically) that I am trying to balance, and I was wondering what changes YOU would make to this race to make it balanced, while preserving the idea of the race. The two races are sort of 'cousins', because they evolved from the same primitive race. They just evolved differently, resulting in to similar, but different, races. They are called Ecklons, and they are a race of insect people.

Racial Traits:
(Pulo)
*-2 Dexterity, +4 Armor Class.
*As medium sized creatures, Ecklons do not recieve any penalties or bonuses due to their size.
*An Ecklon's base land speed is thirty feet.
*Compound Vision: Ecklons see the world in a different way, due to their compound eyes. In fact, Pulo Ecklons see the world a bit differently than Doronn Ecklons. Pulo Ecklons have smaller eyes, which don't appear to be compound eyes, even though they are. Pulo Ecklons have a black shell covering their millions of ommatidia. The vast amount of ommatidia alows them to see just as much detail as a human could. The shell processes sunlight so that the eye can percieve it. Pulo Ecklons, however, can not percieve color. They see in black and white, regardless of the amount of light shed upon the area of viewing. They can see up to the same distance as humans, however, with the same amount of clarity. Because of their inability to percieve color, Pulo Ecklons recieve a -2 penalty to spot and search.
*Exoskeleton: Ecklons muscles, organs, and other tissues are protected by a series of shells which make up the exoskeleton. This exoskeleton can resist harsh temperatures that could damage skin, and they allow Ecklons to ignore pain. Ecklons can survive comfortably in areas up to 200 degrees, and as low as 0 degrees without clothing. They are also immune to pain, the way we know it. Their nerves report damages to their brains, but instead of physically feeling the pain, they are stricken with panic that is appropriate for the level of damage. If an Ecklon comes to below ten percent of his or her hit points, he recieves a -4 penalty to each of his saves, as well as his or her base attack bonus. To avoid this, the Ecklon may make a Concentration check each turn of twenty. For each turn that they reach or surpass twenty, they are unaffected. However, although this causes panic, it also prevents it. Those who attempt to intimidate Ecklons must roll a number that is equal to or greater than 10+ the Ecklons Will Save+ The Ecklons Level. This is also in effect when dealing with creatures who have a fear aura or ability. The Ecklon uses his Will Save, and his level in his defense. However, the exoskeleton accounts for an Ecklon's dexterity penalty. Although they aren't very flexible or agile, Ecklons do gain a bonus to their armor class. Due to their exoskeletons, Ecklons gain a natural +4 bonus when defending against the grapple check of a creature who is attempting to constrict it.
*Weak Eardrums: Ecklons have eardrums that are less effective than human eardrums, or the eardrums of other races, resulting in a -2 to listen.
*Climbing: Ecklons have hooks and hairs on their palms and feet that allow them to stick to surfaces the same way a spider would. They may use spiderclimb at will (20 ft.), provided they use their hands and feet. While climbing, an Ecklon recieves a -4 penalty to his armor class, because his back would be turned to attackers.
*Aging: Ecklons reach physical maturity and adult height at five years old, however they are still mentally five years old. Hatchlings grow from larvae to pre-teen size in five months. Other than that, they age as humans.
*Languages: Ecklish, Common. Ecklons begin the game unable to read common, unless they have at least 15 intelligence.
*Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass Pulo Ecklon suffers an experience point penalty, his highest-level class does not count.
(Doronn)
*+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +4 Armor Class.
*As medium sized creatures, Ecklons do not recieve any penalties or bonuses due to their size.
*An Ecklon's base land speed is thirty feet.
*Compound Vision: Ecklons see the world in a different way, due to their compound eyes. In fact, Pulo Ecklons see the world a bit differently than Doronn Ecklons. Doronn Ecklons have larger eyes, with fewer and more apparent ommatidia. This means that not only do they see in black and white, like the Ecklons of the Pulo hive, their vision is distorted. Through their eyes, the world around them seems pixelated, as if the world is wrapped up inside of a blurry grid. Because of their inability to percieve color, and their inability to distinguish details, Doronn Ecklons recieve a -6 penalty to spot and search.
*Exoskeleton: Ecklons muscles, organs, and other tissues are protected by a series of shells which make up the exoskeleton. This exoskeleton can resist harsh temperatures that could damage skin, and they allow Ecklons to ignore pain. Ecklons can survive comfortably in areas up to 200 degrees, and as low as 0 degrees without clothing. They are also immune to pain, the way we know it. Their nerves report damages to their brains, but instead of physically feeling the pain, they are stricken with panic that is appropriate for the level of damage. If an Ecklon comes to below ten percent of his or her hit points, he recieves a -4 penalty to each of his saves, as well as his or her base attack bonus. To avoid this, the Ecklon may make a Concentration check each turn of twenty. For each turn that they reach or surpass twenty, they are unaffected. However, although this causes panic, it also prevents it. Those who attempt to intimidate Ecklons must roll a number that is equal to or greater than 10+ the Ecklons Will Save+ The Ecklons Level. This is also in effect when dealing with creatures who have a fear aura or ability. The Ecklon uses his Will Save, and his level in his defense. However, the exoskeleton accounts for an Ecklon's dexterity penalty. Although they aren't very flexible or agile, Ecklons do gain a bonus to their armor class. Due to their exoskeletons, Ecklons gain a natural +4 bonus when defending against the grapple check of a creature who is attempting to constrict it. Unlike Pulo Ecklons, Ecklons of the Doronn hive have larger exoskeletons, especially in their arms, chests and legs. This extra amount of room allows the Doronn Ecklons to build muscle with ease and without discomfort, resulting in a breed of Ecklons physically stronger than that of the Pulo hive.
*Weak Eardrums: Ecklons have eardrums that are less effective than human eardrums, or the eardrums of other races, resulting in a -2 to listen.
*Climbing: Ecklons have hooks and hairs on their palms and feet that allow them to stick to surfaces the same way a spider would. They may use spiderclimb at will (20 ft.), provided they use their hands and feet. While climbing, an Ecklon recieves a -4 penalty to his armor class, because his back would be turned to attackers.
*Aging: Ecklons reach physical maturity and adult height at five years old, however they are still mentally five years old. Hatchlings grow from larvae to pre-teen size in five months. Other than that, they age as humans.
*Languages: Ecklish, Common. Ecklons begin the game unable to read common, unless they have at least 15 intelligence.
Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass Doronn Ecklon’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he suffers an experience point penalty
 

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They might not be written exactly how I would write them, but the stats seem more than balanced. There are a lot of negatives to get +4 NA and some other minor perks.

Definitely LA +0 in my book.
 

Thank you for the help! Question, when you say "More than balanced", do you mean a little on the weak side? Because my friend said the same thing and suggested I add Spider Climb (I modified it and then added the -2 Listen). I've made a lot of races, but for some reason I like this one the most, I put a lot into the society/culture.
 

Well the thing is if you give them bonuses that help one class but negatives that only hurt another class, you will get a bad result (broken for one class, never played in another). On the other hand, the bonuses here are mostly defensive in nature which tend to not be broken except when extreme, while the negatives to spot, search & listen can be very bad with certain DMs.

I would try it as is - get a guinea pig.
 

Give them at least 2 legs, put their eyes high up on the body so they can see when they're going to fall over. 4 legs would be even better.

In my opinion, +4 NA and spiderclimb at will is worth at least 1 LA each. the -2 dex will be, for the most part, rendered moot by the NA. It's a chain shirt's worth of AC, only better. There's some penalties, but I don't know that they'd be enough to entirely offset things.

Of course, even LA +0 races aren't entirely bland, they get some stuff, if even a minor skill bonus, or low light vision, etc...

I'd say they'd both be LA +1, maybe +2 for the Doronn. I'm not sure how powerful spiderclimb is, really.
 

[MENTION=28855]domino[/MENTION] Well the spider climb ability was modified. Its not like the spell. The can climb surfaces at 20ft, only if they use both hands and both feet, and while doing so, they recieve a -4 penalty to their AC. Its a nice ability I think, but I don't think it should be a +1 LA with all penalties considered. Also, the Doronn has an extra -4 to Spot and Search and a -2 to intelligence to balance off the +2 to strength. That's what I mean by balancing them, the pros and cons of a race shouldn't outweigh each other, so all penalties considered why should they be +1 or +2 LA? No trying to debate or argue, I just want to get everything considered before introducing it as a playable class for friends.
[MENTION=98256]kitcik[/MENTION] I know its dorky but sometimes I do test games (create a party and use them in test missions) and I could use them in a test game. I have two npc's I made that I planned to introduce to the players during quests. I could test them out.
 

Part of it is, as kitcik said, they're very good at certain classes, and not good at others, which doesn't really work for balance. It means that they'll be good if you want to play one type of class, and nobody will bother with the others.

Likewise, spiderclimb with penalties is still better than no spiderclimb at all.

And I'm pretty sure that it's generally accepted that a bonus to your physical stats, especially strength is equal to 2 penalties to mental stats. (dwarves notwithstanding).

The main thing though is really that +4 NA. For that high of a NA bonus, I'd want penalties bad enough to render it more or less actually unplayable, to still have it be LA +0.

Of course, it's all relative, I don't know what the other races you've got are, but I just think that it'd be very good at certain things, and the penalties will never really come up because those certain things don't really require the things it's being penalized for.
 

Well yeah it would be good at certain classes and weak at others, but so would the half-orc and the halfling. And penalties bad enough to render it unplayable? That's not balanced at all. They would be good at certain classes but I don't think the Pulos would be any better at any one class then other races, considering the -2 dexterity that has an effect on a lot of the game. (AC, reflex saves, skills, feats). And the dwarves have only a -2 mental stat compared to their -2 physical stat, which I assume means they were balanced out by their decreased movement rate, the same way I tried to balance the Doronns by giving them a -6 to spot and search.And yes, weak spider climb is better than no spider climb at all, but what about low-light vision? What about the gnomes spell like abilities?
 

domino, do you mind saying outright what 'certain classes' are, as well as 'others'? kitcik's point was made in a very general vein. Thinking about those Ecklon's, they don't seem to lend themselves very well for anything - at least not better than plain Humans or Dwarves! With their NA, they seem useful for melee, but who doesn't like higher AC? The Doronn's Str bonus makes them quite good for melee, actually - but neither race will ever be good at ranged combat, or skillful classes. And the base races have other, perks, as well, without level adjustment. A +1 level adjustment just for +4 NA seems waaaay out there to me, and another +1 for a mediocre second level spell (even usable at will) sounds absurd, given the penalties the race gets.

Consider that Humans get a bonus feat and bonus skillpoints (which is both HUGE regardless of what you're trying to accomplish). Consider the plethora of abilities that Dwarves get: Darkvision, Stonecunning, racial weapons, Stability, save bonuses...

Now tell me that you'd rather be a Pulo Sorcerer 3 than a Human Sorcerer 4 (or even 5). Or that you'd rather be a Doronn Barbarian 3 than a Dwarf Barbarian 4 (or 5!).

Another thing to consider: the races' main perk, the NA bonus, is very good at low levels. However, it will begin to lose attraction fast once you enter the mid level range. From level 10 or so onwards, that bonus will be hardly felt anymore.


DungeonDragon, your two races should not get a level adjustment. They're balanced well enough.

For future posts, BTW: if you're asking for opinions on the mechanical side of your creations, try to eliminate fluff from your description. Not everybody likes to read a wall of text to learn about ommatidia density, or how your races perceive temperature - especially if they're just asked to judge game balance.
 
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Here is the Draconic template which requires a +1 LA.
+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha
Dragonblood Subtype
+1 Natural Armor
Claws that scale with size
Darkvision
Low-Light Vision
+4 vs. magical sleep & paralysis
+2 Intimidate and Spot

So they get +2 to two physical stats AND a mental stat, AND +1AC, low-light vision and darkvision, and they are LA+1. I'm not trying to argue with anyone or debate, as I've said, but what I'm saying is the pros and the cons should be equal. This +1LA is clearly much more powerful than the Ecklons.
 

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