Need some advice on spells from the miniatures handbook

[Silveras]

My general advice is this: the Miniatures Handbook is as valuable to your campaign as your campaign is based on combat.

Which means, for a pure hack-and-slash game it is pure gold. The value of the book decreases as the amount of combat in the campaign does. It adds a lot of combat-oriented options, and allows some new tactics. If that is not the style of game you want to run, then this is not the book for you.

If your campaign is mostly problem-solving or city-intrigue based, this book will not add that much to it.

For a dungeon-delving campaign, though, which is the closest thing to the minis game that I see in the RPG, the book adds some new tools.

I have much more problem with Undeniable Gravity and Undeniable Gravity, Legion's (spells which force a flying creature to the ground) than I do with any of the ones mentioned here.

 

[Voadam]

I'll be very wary of most of them. I'd ban snakes swiftness outright, it just operates outside of normal D&D rules, and I can't think of any core rule that allows you to act outside your iniative.

Contingency can be set to react to a trigger which can occur on another creatures initiative.

The spells that I saw in the MH in the store that gave me pause were the lesser orb ones where they turned them into conjurations not subject to SR from the original evocations in T&B.

 

[Felon]

I have a player who is looking at spells from the miniatures handbook. I was wondering if others had used them in their games and how they worked out.

Notice that the majority of the opinions expressed don't sound like they're from people who have actually used them but rather from folks who are just eyeballing your one-sentence summaries of how they work and saying "I'd never allow that" or "I'd allow it, but I'd make it 7th level".

I've DM'ed a campaign where all of the spells from the Minis Handbook is allowed, and by and large they are both useful and balanced. Here's what experience has demonstrated:

Baleful Transposition--Great spell, because it leads to some very interesting tactics. I'd be more worried about web being too powerful than BT.
Bigby's Slapping Hand--Another good spell. I wasn't crazy about the Concentration check in place of a save, but it works out well (basically, it's a weaker variant of Snake's Swiftness, Legion).
Curse of Impending Blades--Nobody's used it yet. It's biggest asset of course is that there's no save. I'll probably introduce it as a wand.
Snake's Swiftness--Works fine. There have been no complications with messing up how initiative works or the like.
Snakes Swiftness, Legion's--This one you might want to think twice about. It can hit the bad guys harder than a fireball. OTOH, it is a druid's spell, and they need something good to cast at 3rd level besides Plant Growth.

Looking them over, they just seem wrong for their level.

They're OK as far as I can tell.

 

[Abraxas]

Thanks Felon (and others).

The reason I hesitate to let BT in is I immediately thought of a moderately easy way to kill a fighter type that fails his save against the spell. Have one of the BBEG's allies drink a potion of levitate (or have the spell cast on him) and levitate over a sufficiently deep pit (put something nasty at the bottom if you like). Once the fighter gets within range the BBEG casts BT and swaps the fighter with his flunky - the fighter immediately falls to (if not certain, then pretty darn incapacitating) doom. Not sure I want this scenario.

As for Snake's Swiftness & Bigby's Slapping Hand - my players try to utilize concentration of fire power as much as possible already. These will just make that worse (or better) depending on your point of view. Also SS allows a fighter to get a full attack off against a spellcaster and get a shot in to disrupt spells if the mage readies to cast this on him when the enemy spellcaster starts casting. Or at least it seems to allow it - unless you can't take a single 5' step as part of the immediate extra attack granted.

I'm pretty sure I'll allow CoIB - although it does cross into the divine spellcasters schtick a bit.

 

[MerricB]

The spells that I saw in the MH in the store that gave me pause were the lesser orb ones where they turned them into conjurations not subject to SR from the original evocations in T&B.

It's consistent with other spell revisions in 3.5E. Check out Melf's Acid Arrow - conjuration, no spell resistance, no save, ranged touch attack to hit.

To defend yourself against conjurations, Energy Resistance is your best bet.

Not a problem, people.

Cheers!

 

[Rozman]

The reason I hesitate to let BT in is I immediately thought of a moderately easy way to kill a fighter type that fails his save against the spell. Have one of the BBEG's allies drink a potion of levitate (or have the spell cast on him) and levitate over a sufficiently deep pit (put something nasty at the bottom if you like). Once the fighter gets within range the BBEG casts BT and swaps the fighter with his flunky - the fighter immediately falls to (if not certain, then pretty darn incapacitating) doom. Not sure I want this scenario.

This is not permitted by the spell: "the creatures must be connected by a solid object, such sa the ground, a bridge or a rope."

Also SS allows a fighter to get a full attack off against a spellcaster and get a shot in to disrupt spells if the mage readies to cast this on him when the enemy spellcaster starts casting. Or at least it seems to allow it - unless you can't take a single 5' step as part of the immediate extra attack granted.

I don't think this works either. It allows nothing but a single attack; attacks do not include movement. A readied action can include a 5' step if you have not already moved, and the same with Full Attack. I don't see any reason this spell would allow an extra 5' move.

I'm pretty sure I'll allow CoIB - although it does cross into the divine spellcasters schtick a bit.

Bestow Curse is a Cle or Wiz/Sor spell. I think that allowing Rangers CoIB is a bit odd however.

 

[Abraxas]

Posted by Rozman
"the creatures must be connected by a solid object, such sa the ground, a bridge or a rope."

True - So the floor and pit are covered with a thin sheet of linen that would tear with the application of weight. Or a string that crosses the pit and and is strewn all over the floor around the pit.

As for SS - even if you can't take the 5' step as part of this immediate attack it allows missle weapon users to get full attacks and an extra attack to disrupt a spell. SS legion would be even worse.

I was thinking of CoIB along the lines of "Doom" not bestow curse.

I think it boils down to a dislike on my part of letting the magical cat out of the bag.

 

[MerricB]

True - So the floor and pit are covered with a thin sheet of linen that would tear with the application of weight. Or a string that crosses the pit and and is strewn all over the floor around the pit.

I see. Your killer plan is to have a flying person with a rope dangling from them, trying to get the rope to touch the PC. Because normally the rope is hanging vertically (into a pit), you have to have that flying person throw the rope to touch the PC.

Once you do that, the PC has to fail a saving throw, and assuming that will then take damage from the fall into the pit.

Right... That's nasty, but extremely hard to get off. Why not just fireball the PC?

Cheers!

 

[Abraxas]

The caster doesn't need to fly just levitate (Actually, Its a Birthright game that has no Fly spell).
The caster doesn't even have to be 5th level (or even know the Fireball spell) just a 3rd or 4th level caster, able to cast two 2nd level spells.
The string crosses the pit horizontally and the rest is a tangled mess covering the floor on either sides of the pit.

Dropping the party's tank into a pit, removing her from the combat at hand because of her crummy will save and (depending on the pit depth and whats at the bottom - say 15' of water ) doing more damage than a measly 2d4+2 from the caster's 2 magic missiles at this level, is worth the complications.

Or, with a 5th level caster, angle the pit so the tank is wedged in at the bottom, have it filled with flammable oil and then fireball her.

Or to make it simple, cast it from inside a cage with no door while standing on the same dirt floor that surrounds the cage to remove the tank from the fight.
I guess I just don't like the spell . . Oh Well .

 

[MerricB]

Personally, if I saw someone levitating up there: "Chap with wings, 5 rounds rapid!"

Cheers!