Need some perspective on ECL

[spunky_mutters]

Hmmmm looks like you dont understand what CR is.

CR != ECL flat out.

They are like apples and Oranges.

One is to tell you how much of a challange a mob will be for a party of 4.

The other is to balence all the advantages a PC would get from being that Race.


If you can see this then Im sorry.

Quit wile your ahead and stop restateing your misconceptions.

Take waht other here have said and move on.

Melkroii:

Did you read my quoted post?

I understand that they are separate mechanics. I understand that they are not equal. Now here comes the part that I think you missed:

THE DMG TELLS ME TO USE CHARACTER LEVEL (WHICH FOR MONSTROUS PCs WILL BE ECL + CLASS LEVELS) AS THE BASIS FOR DETERMINING CR. SINCE ECL != CR, I AM ASKING FOR HELP TO FIND A WORKAROUND FOR DETERMING CR FOR HIGH +ECL NPCS. IS IT CR +CLASS LEVEL, OR RACE ECL + CLASS LEVEL. BOTH ARE GIVEN AS POSSIBILITIES, SO EITHER ONE IS WRONG, OR BOTH ARE WRONG.

I'm sorry that you feel I am spreading misconceptions. It seems like you are not addressing anything that I have said beyond the first sentence of the last post.

If you have any ideas about how I can deal with this problem, I would appreciate your input. If you think you can

 

[spunky_mutters]

The biggest problem you seem to have is...CR and ECL are totally different mechanics. You are trying to equate attack rolls and skill rolls. .

<... snip>

Also, you do realize that creatures like the stone giant are broken down into ECL and Racial HD? So, a stone giant has 14 HD of Giant levels and a +4 ECL? If you play as a stone giant fighter 1 you have 14d8+1d10 HP, feats from 15 HD(6 feats plus one fighter bonus), skills, a good fort save, plus stone giant special abilities(which are negligible, except HIGH STR and reach).

Gariig

I know they are different mechanics. Please re-read the post to which you are replying to see that my problem is that the rule is to equate them when determining CR for monsters, but not level for players.

It's (HD + Level Adjustment = ECL + Class levels) = Character Level.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Spatula]

The reason that I say CR has to equal ECL (the only reason), is that the method provided for determing CR for classed npcs/monsters explicitly makes this assumption (in that it assumes CR = character level).

This is incorrect. The method for determining the CR of a classed NPC is CR = class level (or class level - 1 for NPC classes), not character level, plus the base CR of the monster. A monster's character level is equal to its total HD (racial HD + class HD), which for most monsters does not equal CR.

So I think your basic assumption is wrong. CR only equals character level if the character (a) is of a race that has a single racial HD (which is replaced by the first class level HD), (b) has no innate powerful abilities, and (c) has no levels in an NPC class. While this is true for a regular human fighter, it is not and has never been true for NPCs that are from powerful races or have levels in the sub-standard classes (commoner, warrior, etc.).

If they are not equal (and the whole point of my starting this thread is that I can see they are not equal and I am trying to figure out how to deal with that with regard to high ECL races who are explicitly given a CR in one instance that is nowhere near their ECL based CR).

I think what is tripping people up is that you don't explain why the difference between CR and ECL is an issue. CR only matters for NPCs, ECL only matters for PCs. You said that you plan on running two seperate groups, one 'normal' and one 'monster', so perhaps you're planning on pitting them against one another in combat, in which case the monster PCs could be at a disadvantage. If that's not the case, then I'm not sure why it matters.

 

[Spatula]

melkoriii, that was rude and uncalled for. Not to mention that you quoted his entire post and apparently ignored the parts where he says that CR shouldn't equal ECL.

 

[spunky_mutters]

Spatula: You are correct, they will be pitted against each other at different times. I need an accurate method for determining their strengths relative to each other.

With regard to the calculation method used:

Okay, I lumped npcs with monsters, and that was in error, but there is still a problem that stems from the fact that ECL tries to balance for campaign play, but determines combat level for PCs (which is pitted against CR to determine appropriate EL).

For example:

8 Stone giants (CR 8, EL14) fight a party of 4 stone giant PCs with no class levels as of yet. (+ECL 18 = Character level 18). Now the PCs have better stats and items, and will probably win. They will get no XP from this combat, though, because Stone Giants are CR 8.

NPCs get the better stats, but not equivalent equipment to PCs, so does that count for anything? It doesn't CR-wise when comparing PCs and NPCs, but it makes a big difference when virtually equal opponents have only 50% of the equipment resources of one another.

Now I know it's all approximation, and that the less granular nature of level-based systems means you need to make tradeoffs in return for the simplicity. I'm just looking for some help from people who have table experience with high ECL PCs and NPCs so that I don't take to many false starts before I strike the right balance in my game.

Thanks.

 

[melkoriii]

Classed monsters CR = base CR+class.

PC Monsters Character lvl = ECL+Class

The thing is the CR != Checater lvl.

For a Human or any other race that has only 1 race HD or less
Both CR and Character lvl = Class

but this is just a quincidence.



P.S
I was not trying to be rude. I read the first post and his last post and mostly the same thing said.

 

[spunky_mutters]

Classes monsters CR is CR+class.

PC Monsters Character lvl = ECL+Class

The thing is the CR != Checater lvl.

For a Human or any other race that has only 1 race HD or less
Both CR and Character lvl = Class

but this is just this is a quincident.



P.S
I was not trying to be rude. I read the first post and his last post and mostly the same thing said.

So don't you think having a Stone Giant(CR 8)/ Fighter5 = CR13 and a PC Stone Giant(18)/Fighter(5) = Character Level 23 is a problem when you're trying to balance combat encounters?

or a Shadow(CR3)/Rog5 = CR 8,
(And I realize I was repeating myself. I was getting a lot of responses, with few actually dealing with my question, so I was trying to make myself understood.)

 

[melkoriii]

Spatula: You are correct, they will be pitted against each other at different times. I need an accurate method for determining their strengths relative to each other.

With regard to the calculation method used:

Okay, I lumped npcs with monsters, and that was in error, but there is still a problem that stems from the fact that ECL tries to balance for campaign play, but determines combat level for PCs (which is pitted against CR to determine appropriate EL).

For example:

8 Stone giants (CR 8, EL14) fight a party of 4 stone giant PCs with no class levels as of yet. (+ECL 18 = Character level 18). Now the PCs have better stats and items, and will probably win. They will get no XP from this combat, though, because Stone Giants are CR 8.

NPCs get the better stats, but not equivalent equipment to PCs, so does that count for anything? It doesn't CR-wise when comparing PCs and NPCs, but it makes a big difference when virtually equal opponents have only 50% of the equipment resources of one another.

Now I know it's all approximation, and that the less granular nature of level-based systems means you need to make tradeoffs in return for the simplicity. I'm just looking for some help from people who have table experience with high ECL PCs and NPCs so that I don't take to many false starts before I strike the right balance in my game.

Thanks.

For one thing the PC Stone Giants will have much better stats.

The NPC have a 10 in each stat then add race bonus.

PC != NPC

NPC's are there for only the encounter. They do not have to do many of the tasks a PC does.

So you think a 2nd lvl Human Fighter is the same as a PC classless Ogre?

Most defenently not. The Ogre out classes the fighter easily.

But a Ogre is defenatly a balenced Foe for a party of 4, 2nd lvl PC's.

What you are trying to do is not what the system was built for and yes you will hav much problems tyring to fit the two partys against each other.

 

[spunky_mutters]

Melkorii:

I appreciate your help, but it would save us both some time if you would read my post before replying. In the quoted text from your post I state that PCs have better stats and items, and that NPCs will have better stats, but only 50% item resources. I know all of what you are telling me.

To tell me I will have problems is kind of like me coming to tell you I have a flat tire and you look at it say " You can't drive on that, it's flat." In other words, you're correct, but that doesn't help me.

 

[dcollins]

8 Stone giants (CR 8, EL14) fight a party of 4 stone giant PCs with no class levels as of yet. (+ECL 18 = Character level 18). Now the PCs have better stats and items, and will probably win. They will get no XP from this combat, though, because Stone Giants are CR 8.

Spunky, you seem to have hit upon an interesting problem with the current ruleset. In this example, I personally don't think that the ability scores make much difference; the main difference is the 440,000 gp of gear that each PC would have compared to the NPCs near-nothing. (Perhaps the PCs are each dual-wielding +5 giant-bane thundering shocking greatswords, something like that.) One might ask if the 440,000 gp is worth the +10 challenge per figure, because that seems to be the balancing factor. Or, one could ask if the SS rules (I don't know) dictate using the ECL for challenge and XP analysis.

For me, I don't have FRCS or Savage Species, so I always turn back to the monster rules in the core books (DMG p. 22-24) which actually sound more balanced from what I hear of the others (even though everyone else prefers the revised rules). From what I see on DMG p. 22, ECL would only be used for when PC-monsters-can-enter the game. After that point, from DMG p. 24 ("Experience for Monsters"), the ECL would not be used to calculate the character level, rather it would be HD + class levels. In your example, the PCs would be judged at character level 14 each and would get XP for this encounter.

Note that under DMG rules the PCs would not get additional equipment for their monster levels (DMG p. 24, paragraph 3). It, too, has problems because this alleged EL 14 encounter versus level 14 characters would be highly deadly and not a "standard challenge" that EL = average character level should be, but at least it's another option to think about.