Need some perspective on ECL

[Spatula]

Well, I'm afraid that I don't have any answers for you. An ogre is CR 2 but has 4 HD and an ECL of +6. An unclassed ogre PC has superior ability scores and the equipment of a 6th level PC, compared to the MM ogre that has hide armor, a greatclub, and a spear. The PC ogre is definitely more dangerous, but is it CR 6 dangerous? I would guess it closer to CR 4, but I would need to see it in action to be sure. Perhaps you could start from the basis that CR does equal character level (monster HD + class levels) for monster PCs, then modify it upwards if the monster possesses truly special abilities (like mind blast at will). Unfortunately I think that you're in mostly uncharted waters here, since most people have no need to determine the CR of their PCs.

 

[melkoriii]

Melkorii:

I appreciate your help, but it would save us both some time if you would read my post before replying. In the quoted text from your post I state that PCs have better stats and items, and that NPCs will have better stats, but only 50% item resources. I know all of what you are telling me.

To tell me I will have problems is kind of like me coming to tell you I have a flat tire and you look at it say " You can't drive on that, it's flat." In other words, you're correct, but that doesn't help me.

heheheheh I love your analigy. what you said was ture.

on the PC's haven better stats this is what I mean.


Stone Ginat stats
Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11


This comes out to a racal bonus of:
Str +16, Dex +4, Con, +8, Int, Wis and Cha at +0.

So a PC with point by 28 could have this.

Str 30, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 12, Wiz 12 Cha 10

The PC has better attack better AC better HP better saves, more skill points.

and I think you then add character bonus (stat and Feats) but I cant remember if thats is based on HD or ECL.

I think ECL.

Now compare this PC Stone Giant to a Human PC.

What lvl equivalnt is he?

 

[Spatula]

Or, one could ask if the SS rules (I don't know) dictate using the ECL for challenge and XP analysis.

They do not. SS is about playing monster PCs, not what the CR of a monster equipped as a PC of the appropriate ECL would be.

For me, I don't have FRCS or Savage Species, so I always turn back to the monster rules in the core books (DMG p. 22-24) which actually sound more balanced from what I hear of the others (even though everyone else prefers the revised rules).

The problem with the DMG monster-PC rules is that the effects change depending on when the character is created. An unclassed ogre (4 HD) is listed as a good match for a 5th level party; the new ogre PC starts with the XP of a 4th level character which means it is 1 HD and 4000 XP behind everyone else. If that character survives to the point where the party is 20th level, that 4k difference in XP is peanuts, and the ogre is no longer a level behind. But if you create a new 15th level ogre PC to join a 20th level party, you're 1 HD and 19000 XP behind.

The ECL system simply ensures that the 'cost' of using a powerful race stays the same regardless of the level that the character is created at. And it gives the character appropriate equipment for the level of threats that the character will be facing.

 

[spunky_mutters]

I think what I'm going to do is create a chart to gauge average power for a given level in different areas. I will use the DMG NPCs as a baseline (I know they aren't optimized and lack equipment, but it gives me levels 1-20 in each core class made with the same assumptions, which should serve me well for a guide), and calculate averages for each of the important combat factors for each level. I can then use this to peg abilities for the players to a given level, create an average level for the player, and determine disproportionate strengths and weaknesses for their level.

I can then run some scenarios to test it and find holes. If I keep things simple enough I can just make a perl script to run on the pcgen XML output to generate a result for monsters/npcs/pcs. In this way I can generate a normalized result to serve as a basis for comparison.

With regard to Upper Krust's system, the problem I have with it is that you can either overpay for abilities that are useless past a certain level, or underpay for abilities that skew things at early levels (it's mostly overpaying, though). By establishing a baseline amount in each category from 1-20, I can not only ignore things that have no effect on a category at higher levels, but I can automatically have a list of strengths and weaknesses for both PCs, NPCs and Monsters. This is more useful than just a CR rating. If I know the party has bad saves and no SR, I know that creatures that are +levels in spellcasting or magic abilities will be a potential killer even if the CR looks about right.

I'm leaving on a trip for the next few days so I'll post what I come up with when I come back.

Thanks to everybody who lent their opinions to my dilemma.

 

[magnas_veritas]

They do not. SS is about playing monster PCs, not what the CR of a monster equipped as a PC of the appropriate ECL would be.

Yep. I've been using SS heavily for an upcoming game I'm in, and near as I can tell, the only reason CR's in there is so the high-level, low-CR races can thumb their noses at the all-class characters they're fighting..."Nyah, nyah, even if you win you won't get any XP!" Then again, their loot's better.

Brad

 

[dcollins]

They do not. SS is about playing monster PCs, not what the CR of a monster equipped as a PC of the appropriate ECL would be.

Note that's not what I asked (what is the CR of this monster PC?). What I did ask was whether the SS dictates that ECL be used for challenge and XP-award analysis (what challenge is appropriate for this monster PC? How much XP should this monster PC receive?) I would assume the answer to that is "yes".

 

[Spatula]

Note that's not what I asked (what is the CR of this monster PC?). What I did ask was whether the SS dictates that ECL be used for challenge and XP-award analysis (what challenge is appropriate for this monster PC? How much XP should this monster PC receive?) I would assume the answer to that is "yes".

Ah, sorry, yes that's correct. That doesn't have any real bearing on spunky_mutter's problem, as I understand it though.

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds, I'm sorry but I don't really understand a good chunk of what you wrote there.Broken down how?

Common sense. Compare a +1 ECL race to a 1st-level "pick class".

And which ECL values?

Of the race.