Negative LA race?

Cheiromancer

Adventurer
Use "Human" in the PHB as a base; what would you have to take away in order for the resulting creature to have a Level Adjustment of -1?

Here's my rough estimate:

Muggle
-2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
no extra feat at 1st level
no extra skill point per level
favored class: expert
otherwise as human.

Would a 6th level muggle be about the same power as a 5th level human, dwarf or elf?
 

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Not nearly as powerful. Even if you used a non-casting class (for obvious reasons), you'd be eaten by any reasonably constructed PC of a core race.
 

Why? What one feat can make up for an entire level?

Compare 6th level muggle fighter to 5th level human fighter. All 10s in stats (for simplicity).

Err, actually, here the muggle has one more feat than mr fighter, in addition to an extra attack. No contest.

So, 5th level muggle fighter versus 4th level human fighter, all 10s as base.

The muggle has more hp, and a higher BAB.

Now, if the muggle had -2 to all stats, that may be something.

The issue is that level 2 adds more power to a character than any succeeding level, really, so an ECL -1 race would definately be sucky.
 

It's not just the feat. It's also the ability penalties. From a Human, you're losing a feat, two skills per level, and one point of Will save.

If you're any kind of spellcaster, you're even more hosed.

If you're one of the four classes that don't cast spells, you're losing a feat and skill points, which those classes all desparately need.

And, unlike the other core races, which don't have the Human bonus feat or the extra skill point, you have absolutely no special abilities. You don't even get the subpar abilities of the Half Elf, and instead of FC: Any, you have FC: Expert, which is nearly worthless, especially as your skill loss also hampers your ability in that class.
 

Originally posted by Korimyr the Rat
It's not just the feat. It's also the ability penalties. From a Human, you're losing a feat, two skills per level, and one point of Will save.

And gaining a level, which gives 1/3 of a general feat, at least one point of saves on average (even if all three saves are "bad" for that class), at least 2+INT skill points, and any class benefits for the level.
For example, having an extra Fighter level gives d10+CON HP and +1 BAB. That flat +1 to BAB alone is superior to Weapon Focus, so losing a Feat doesn't seem like such a big deal.

This has been one of the big ironies of Savage Species. Everyone's so hot to play a "monster" race with all those neat abilities, and later realizing that the levels lost to ECL would have really been useful with all their uninteresting bonuses.

If you're any kind of spellcaster, you're even more hosed.

Other than Psion. Egoists, Nomads, and Savants would be perfectly happy sacrificing those mental stats. Likewise, a Psychic Warrior can almost ignore the mental stats as is.

If you're one of the four classes that don't cast spells, you're losing a feat and skill points, which those classes all desparately need.

But, as noted above, you're gaining saves, BAB, HP, and whatever class benefits you would have gained. It's the exact reverse of the normal ECL argument.

Any, you have FC: Expert, which is nearly worthless, especially as your skill loss also hampers your ability in that class.

And Favored Class only hurts multiclassers. If I went straight Psychic Warrior (which I have), then this race would be better than the standard Human. To make this be effective, you'd have to say that this race CANNOT play a PHB class.

IMC, we added Half-Ogre as a custom ECL 0 race (it was a homebrew, long before Savage Species). One of its drawbacks was "Favored Class: None". The only thing it's really done in practice was reduce the prevalence of Prestige Classes for that race; a Half-Ogre who takes 20 levels of Barbarian or Fighter will still be really effective in combat. In the long run, it was just a minor drawback, and it's more severe than what you're proposing.

There's the problem. No matter how you penalize the race, there'll pretty much always be at least one class that isn't harmed by your change, and a single-class player can then take advantage of that extra level to be a stronger character than before. While low INT, WIS, and CHA may hurt in general, just looking at Half-Orcs tells you it's not crippling.
To make a balanced ECL -1 race, you'd have to subtract from all six stats equally. Which, coincidentally, would put you exactly where you'd be if you rolled a flat 3d6 for stats instead of 4-drop-1, which is what they tell you to do for NPCs. Also coincidentally, NPC classes have CR of level-1...
 

Spatzimaus, how did having a favored class: none affect going into prestige classes? You do know that prestige classes aren't counted when seeing if you take a multiclass xp penalty right?
 

Spatzimaus said:

To make a balanced ECL -1 race, you'd have to subtract from all six stats equally. Which, coincidentally, would put you exactly where you'd be if you rolled a flat 3d6 for stats instead of 4-drop-1, which is what they tell you to do for NPCs. Also coincidentally, NPC classes have CR of level-1...

Would -2 to all ability scores be sufficient for a level adjustment of -1?

Or do you mean in addition to the other features of the proposed muggle?
 

Nobody in their right mind would want to play this... this "muggle" you speak of. They sound like retarded muppets or something equally obnoxious. "Hey you guys! Wait up for Mr. Muggles! He's a lil'bit slow in the head... but boy, is he an expert at carving wooden lawn gnomes!" :D

Kobolds have a -1 ECL so why not use that as a base for what constitutes your "muggle"?
 
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Spatzimaus said:
Other than Psion. Egoists, Nomads, and Savants would be perfectly happy sacrificing those mental stats. Likewise, a Psychic Warrior can almost ignore the mental stats as is.

That, more than anything, is a flaw in 3e Psionics.

Your other points are valid. The extra level would help almost any single-classed non-spellcasting character (except the Monk), even against the stat penalties.
 

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