Nerfed Wildshape?

[Pielorinho]

Well, yeah. From a min/max, combat-monkey perspective, sure. There's no comparison.

It's just stupid.

Exactly. Two years ago, pre-errataed wildshape, post-errataed polymorph self, I had exactly this same argument with my DM. It was like pulling teeth to get him to let me have a wolf's nose when I became a wolf.

Here's hoping I can avoid round two of this silly argument. It's all about the flavor: I can't think of the last time I wildshaped into something for its superior senses. But I hate thinking of wildshape as putting on the furry suit.

Daniel

 

[Apok]

What bugs me about this change as well as a number of others that I've seen with 3.5 is that I'm getting a rather distinct feeling that if something doesn't directly contribute to combat prowess, it has been given little regard. In my opinion, "role-playing" (as opposed to combat) is not just about having the characters with the high charisma chatting with the NPC's. It's about using a character's abilities to do things outside of combat.

This is primarily because it's easier to make adjustment to rules with regards to combat because it's the scale upon which everything is weighed and balanced (or not balanced). There are definitive guidelines and measures that the designers can look at and say "this is/isn't too powerful for Situation X." It is far more difficult to determine how powerful an ability is outside of combat because of the sheer number of variables involved, the biggest being player creativity.

Most combat situations are fairly formulaic and easy to break down and analyze. Roleplaying situations are far more complex and difficult to predict, which is why this discrepancy exists.

 

[ForceUser]

I'd trade all of those "gains" for that one "loss", and not look back.

Not me. Plant creatures aren't subject to critical hits, mind-affecting spells, or death from massive damage. Hell, a clever 3.5 druid can cast the new call lightning, wild shape into a shambling mound, and zap himself with electricity to heal during combat. Some juicy possibilities there. Plus, dire animals are generally cooler than normal ones, and I for one can't wait to wild shape into a dire lion at 8th level. A freaking dire lion! Rawr! And imagine this: 3.5 druid is a dire bear - he improved grabs opponent, pins him. Shapeshifts into a dire constrictor with no need for a Concentration check. Squeezes the Charmin' until its eyes pop out.

So many possibilities with 3.5 wild shape; I am all a-twitter with excitement.

 

[LGodamus]

if you arent a min maxer this sux..I am not turning into a wolf to bite people...I am doing it to follow them to their lair. I can hurt people with my scimitar.

 

[youspoonybard]

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by GenLang
I'd like to know what these Ex abilities are that the 3.5 team didn't want 'within easy reach' of the PCs, and why the 3.5 team felt that way.

Knowing the full reasoning behind this will help explain to my druid players why they don't get Scent when they become a wolf, or why shaping into a bat doesn't let them be a useful bat (no blindsight, can't move around. Pointless animal shape), and will aid my GMs friends in pondering houserules to this issue. KNowing where the leak in the roof is makes for more efficient patching, afterall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Here are some special qualities that the MM defines as extraordinary, and which we were very leery about letting in so easily.

Blindsight (and, to a lesser extent, blindsense)
Fast healing
Regeneration
Spell Immunity
Spell Resistance
Tremorsense

Though animals in the MM tend to possess very few (if any) of these extraordinary qualities, there's nothing saying that a book published tomorrow wouldn't include more. And that's not to mention the infinite variety of other problematic extraordinary qualities that might be created down the line. That's a design constraint that we didn't want to add to the system.

We wholeheartedly support efforts to add specific extraordinary special qualities to the repertoire of a wild-shaping druid, whether that's by way of feats, prestige class features, spells, magic items, or what-have-you. We just knew that we didn't want to give away the "whole farm" for free.


__________________
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D"

I think Andy's right. If you've played a Druid, you know how powerful scent and blindsight are. If they said that we retain scent and blindsight, but lost all other abilities, people would be fine with it.

In general, Wild Shape has improved, but no longer makes spells like See Invisibility or Faerie Fire useless.

And perhaps wolves will have racial bonuses to Survival when tracking. Right now they have it by scent, but who knows? In that case, your "keen nose" is helping...it's just not doing everything for you.

 

[Tsyr]

Not me. Plant creatures aren't subject to critical hits, mind-affecting spells, or death from massive damage. Hell, a clever 3.5 druid can cast the new call lightning, wild shape into a shambling mound, and zap himself with electricity to heal during combat. Some juicy possibilities there. Plus, dire animals are generally cooler than normal ones, and I for one can't wait to wild shape into a dire lion at 8th level. A freaking dire lion! Rawr! And imagine this: 3.5 druid is a dire bear - he improved grabs opponent, pins him. Shapeshifts into a dire constrictor with no need for a Concentration check. Squeezes the Charmin' until its eyes pop out.

So many possibilities with 3.5 wild shape; I am all a-twitter with excitement.

This is my gripe with this change, and a few others (Such as the change to Call Lightning)... It's turning the druid less into "Nature guy, master of the woods and the wild" into "Nature guy, master of nature-flavoured combat".

 

[ForceUser]

This is my gripe with this change, and a few others (Such as the change to Call Lightning)... It's turning the druid less into "Nature guy, master of the woods and the wild" into "Nature guy, master of nature-flavoured combat".

I was surprised by the druid changes; having played one for a while in 3E, I know their massive potential in the hands of a clever player. I feel they did not need this revision. That said, it's happened, we're converting, and I'll have fun with the new version too.

 

[youspoonybard]

This is my gripe with this change, and a few others (Such as the change to Call Lightning)... It's turning the druid less into "Nature guy, master of the woods and the wild" into "Nature guy, master of nature-flavoured combat".

Uh...

Gaining spot and listen as class skills, as well as ride, doesn't back up this statement to me.

As far as I can tell, people thought the 3.0 Druid was weak (even though I didn't), and so beefed him up, combat wise. This is the same thing they did with the bard and ranger.

I'm just confused. Besides not getting scent and blindsight, how is the Druid becoming less of the master of the wild?

 

[youspoonybard]

Not me. Plant creatures aren't subject to critical hits, mind-affecting spells, or death from massive damage. Hell, a clever 3.5 druid can cast the new call lightning, wild shape into a shambling mound, and zap himself with electricity to heal during combat. Some juicy possibilities there. Plus, dire animals are generally cooler than normal ones, and I for one can't wait to wild shape into a dire lion at 8th level. A freaking dire lion! Rawr! And imagine this: 3.5 druid is a dire bear - he improved grabs opponent, pins him. Shapeshifts into a dire constrictor with no need for a Concentration check. Squeezes the Charmin' until its eyes pop out.

So many possibilities with 3.5 wild shape; I am all a-twitter with excitement.

Plant Wild Shape looks weak, right now.

Since you retain your type, all of your cool plant type abilities (such as the ones you mentioned) don't apply to you.

 

[Wolfspider]

Plant Wild Shape looks weak, right now.

Since you retain your type, all of your cool plant type abilities (such as the ones you mentioned) don't apply to you.

Heh.