D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

[Tony Vargas]

If you are going to try and chastise me for being off topic,

Do you feel your contributions have constituted "most of the thread?"

... you should know as well as anyone that neither topic drift, nor tangential conversations, are a crime.

In another thread, I bounded off on a tangent with the very first reply, so I'm just as guilty of that non-crime.

But it has taken rather a lot of pages to figure out that Xeviat's idea of replacing a -5 penalty with disadvantage won't, by the number, accomplish what he's aiming for.

The whole bug-or-feature argument is kinda moot by comparison.

 

[Corwin]

I had a guy go an entire sesion and never get a crit on his champion and we do 6-8 hour games

Would you say the wizard class sucks, if one went a whole session with every enemy making their saves against his spells?

See, I just don't think that metric is all that valid method for determining if a class is good.

 

[Corwin]

Do you feel your contributions have constituted "most of the thread?"

Dunno. You are the one lumping people into groups. You tell me.

The whole bug-or-feature argument is kinda moot by comparison.

All I've been championing is, "One man's bug...". I don't see you disagreeing with that sentiment.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I had a guy go an entire sesion and never get a crit on his champion and we do 6-8 hour games I know bad rolling ...

Wow, that sucks.

wizard... went a whole session with every enemy making their saves against his spells?

Wow, that sucks.

Seriously, though, the Champion, in terms of the all-important best-at-fighting DPR metric, is differentiated from other fighters & melee types mainly by his improved crits. If they never happen in a given span, that sucks. The Wizard is differentiated from other casters by his ability to know many spells, his large spell list with more unique spells than any other, his ability to cast rituals straight from his book, and various other Tradition perks. If he goes a whole session with no one failing a saving throw vs his spells (and for some reason, kept on only cast spells that gave saves), that'd suck, but it wouldn't be quite as discouraging on the same level, because the class has so much more to differentiate itself in it's specialty of casting.
Of course, it's not fair to compare a sub-class to a class, let alone an intentionally-simple sub-class to one of the most option-rich classes in the game.

See, I just don't think that metric is all that valid method for determining if a class is good.

Agreed. An anecdote where a character of a given sub-class has a run of bad (or good) luck does not say much about the sub-class.

 

[hejtmane]

Would you say the wizard class sucks, if one went a whole session with every enemy making their saves against his spells?

See, I just don't think that metric is all that valid method for determining if a class is good.

Like I said that was one session but that is the entire class theme is built around criting and being simple it has just under whelmed and EK surprised me a lot on verstiality and its effect on the game.

 

[Xeviat]

One thread on buffing the champion. One on nerfing GWM.

I'm getting mixed messages.

Is Great Weapon Mastery part of the Champion's class progression? Is it a required ability that Champions use a two-handed heavy weapon and spend one of their ASI's on this particular feat?


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[Xeviat]

If you really don't like it just remove "power attack" part and add +1 str or GW fighting style to the feat instead.

I like the power attack part in theory. I've just seen it seem to be contributing more than other options and feeling like a required feat for Barbarians. I don't like when anything starts to look like a required choice by my players.


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[Xeviat]

Would you say the wizard class sucks, if one went a whole session with every enemy making their saves against his spells?

See, I just don't think that metric is all that valid method for determining if a class is good.

If the wizard was throwing out damage spells, then at least they'd be doing half damage with their spells. Their spells would be doing something. A Champion that fails to crit is more like a Diviner who forgets to use Portent.


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[Mistwell]

Your game isn't close to "optimal" then. That doesn't mean the feat isn't broken. Only that you don't break it.

The thing all the naysayers conveniently ignore (not saying you are part of that group; the rest of this post isn't directed at you or any individual poster) is that a solution that works for the optimized scenario works for the run of the mill scenario too.

That is, let's say a balanced solution would be to replace the -5/+10 part of the feat with +1 Str.

Would y'all miss the +10 damage if that was what the PHB said.

No.

These people try to make it out to be like only a small subset of gamers have issues. But if you won't have any issues with a fixed, balanced, feat (just as you don't have any issues with the original, broken, feat) then why not support the change, increase the quality of the game and the number of players who can use it without pesky houserules...?

WOTC doesn't appear to be interested in changing the feat, and this message board is also not a good way to even attempt to persuade WOTC to change the feat, and you freely admit they're likely not reading any of this.

You said your intent was to persuade us to support a change to the feat (I am not sure why that would help), but it doesn't appear as if anyone is being persuaded by your current approach. But maybe I am wrong in that?

So what am I missing here? Is there some meaningful number of people who appear to be changing their minds based on your current approach to this topic that I have not seen? Do you have some cache of private messages rooting you on who, prior to this debate, were on the fence or against a change? Or similarly have you seen posts here that I missed from people who previously were on the fence or against a change who are now in favor of a change based on your approach?

If so, OK fair enough. But if not...have you considered a different approach?

 

[Corwin]

If the wizard was throwing out damage spells, then at least they'd be doing half damage with their spells. Their spells would be doing something.

The anecdote offered was the champion never rolled a crit. Not that he never hit with his attacks. You attempted to move the goalpost. Not cool.