Nerfing sunder and disarm

[hong]

For various reasons, some detailed here, I'd like to make these actions less attractive in combat. Here's what I've come up with.


Striking a weapon or shield (to be renamed "sundering" in 3.5E):

1. Attempting to strike an opponent's weapon draws an attack of opportunity.

2. If the AoO hits, your attempt fails automatically. Otherwise, you and your opponent make opposed attack rolls.

3. If you beat your opponent's roll, you roll damage as per current rules.

The Sunder feat (to be renamed "Improved Sunder" in 3.5E) grants you a +4 bonus to AC against the AoO when attempting to strike a weapon or shield.


Disarming:

1. Attempting to disarm an opponent draws an attack of opportunity.

2. If the AoO hits, your disarm attempt fails automatically. Otherwise, you and your opponent make opposed attack rolls. You gain +/-4 for each weapon size category above/below Medium, +4 for a two-handed weapon, etc.

3. If you beat your opponent's roll, they are disarmed.

The Improved Disarm feat grants you a +4 bonus to AC against the AoO when attempting to disarm an opponent.


Comments?

 

[Bauglir]

What if I disarm/sunder from 10ft away with my spiked chain/large creature/etc?

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've always just assumed that if the AoO hits, the disarm/break weapon attempt fails... is that house rule territory?

I've just had a quick read of the other thread, and I think an option that I would include is that an attack to sunder or disarm is at an automatic -4 to hit ( or perhaps -5 which is the penalty for hitting an object which is carried in someones hand?).

This would address the issue someone noted where it is too easy for fighters of equal level to disarm one another etc. The penalty for an action (which must be more difficult than a normal attack, surely) makes it more appropriate to use against weaker foes than equivalent foes.

The improved sunder and improved disarm feat would then remove this -4 penalty.

How does that sound?

 

[thullgrim]

Can the AoO that a sunder normally draws be used to sunder the weapon the attacker is using to attempt to sunder your own weapon? If isn't this kind a solution in itself.

Garm: I sunder the blackguards weapon
Blackguard: I attempt to sunder Garm's weapon as my AoO.

If this legal it seems like it solves many of the problems you present in the other thread. In any case a feat that allows this to happen might also solve a number of the problems with sunder.

Counter-Sunder
When someone attempts to sunder your weapon you may first attempt to sunder theirs.
Prerequisites: Sunder
Benefit: When someone attempts to sunder the weapon you are wielding, you may make a sunder attempt against their weapon before the sunder attempt on your weapon is resolved.

The thing I dislike about the way you have changed Sunder above is the sunder attempt is simply left to chance if it is attempted by 2 equal BaB's.

Thullgrim

 

[Marshall]

I think we need to combine Hong and Planesailings ideas.

thullgrim : Garm then uses his AoO to Sunder the Blackguards weapon.(Well, he would if the BG didn't have the Sunder feat...)

 

[MarauderX]

I gotta fight for the Disarm.

Why change the rules on this? Too tough to run as a DM? It's a key thing with a bard I am playing, as he has a whip to trip & disarm, and the major drawback I have already is "what if I fail?" The bard is wide open to melee attacks from all other opponents until his next turn. And then if he wants to run away, it draws an AoO, or he can draw another weapon (as move equivalent) - neither is good for a typically ranged character. Trying a disarm is already a tricky move, and if an NPC is more experienced then she should have the advantage to disarm. I don't really see the problem with the game balance as it stands.

The problem I have with the disarm is with the size incremental bonuses. Using a longsword to disarm someone with a dagger should be just as hard as vice-versa, only as we know with the present size catagory difference it would give the swordsman a significant advantage... not necessarily a good 'model of reality' IMO, if that's what you are aiming for.

 

[hong]

I gotta fight for the Disarm.

See thread title.

It's a key thing with a bard I am playing, as he has a whip to trip & disarm

Unfortunately, you have an ulterior motive, and so are ignorable.

 

[Destil]

I'm not a big fan of the 50% success rate for two people with equal bonuses that disarm and sunder have at present. Even if you treat it like grapple and a damage dealing AoO stops the appempt there's still the issue of reach.

I've been considering a +4 circumstance bonus to the defender to represent the reletive difficulity of disarming vs. avoiding a disarm, myself.

EDIT: Which, of course, results in the exact same effect as Plane Sailing's idea...

 

[MarauderX]

Unfortunately, you have an ulterior motive, and so are ignorable.

um, right.

I agree with your other thread about how easy it is to bypass an opponent's primary skills by using alternate tactics, but under the present rules it is still rather difficult. Of course it matters more for the higher levels IMO as that 100 HP barbarian ends up being tripped prone during the entire battle while that barbarian gets chewed up by everyone else. And of course you should grapple an enemy spellcaster -- if you can get to him first. I don't know if you are trying to say 'no fair, you shouldn't be able to do that' or if the CRs haven't been thought out well enough. An experienced barbarian/wizard/whatever should at least have an inkling into how to counter such tactics and plan against them. If you are the player, perhaps the DM is throwing some frustrating things at you to prolong the battle a bit more, or is exploiting a weakness.

I find the disarm necessary as a DM to capture the PCs without a lot of messy damage, and vice versa so they can pump some lowly goblins for info. I like the way it works presently and intend to keep it as a means to an end. Have fun with the AoO thing, let me know how it changes your game balance.

<<Commence with the flaming.>>

 

[MerakSpielman]

How about: Strike a Weapon

Make opposed attack rolls. If you succeed, you roll damage for the attack as normal and maybe sunder the weapon.

If you fail, your opponent gets, as a free action, an opportunity to sunder your weapon without drawing an AoO from you.

The rationale is that hitting at their weapon is a dangerous thing to do. You have to hit it just right to make sure your weapon is fine and theirs breaks. If the opponent is an experienced fighter (i.e., good BaB) he might twist his weapon a little bit at the last moment, making your weapon the one in the bad position.

Or maybe you roll attack and damage, but afterward make an opposed attack roll to see whose weapon takes the damage. That way, YOUR buffs might go towards the damage to YOUR weapon.