Neutral Paladin
- Thread starter rossik
- Start date
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
seans23 said:
You can find Word of Balance in the FR Underdark supplement, page 63. Works on creatures on the "Extremes" of alignnment (LG, CG, LE, CE).
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
IMO, a "Paladin of Balance" would focus on balancing the Law-Chaos axis. He might seek out societies oppressed by dictators and work to free the population, then seek out a society that has fallen into anarchy and restore a measure of law and order. Too much restriction of freedom would be bad, while too much freedom/lack of order would also be bad.
What would you call them? Dunno.
What would you call them? Dunno.
Celebrim
Legend
The Paladin of nuetrality would be a soldier of passivity. His philosophy would be reactive rather than active, and he'd tend to side against anything that was trying to bring about change. Assuming he was willing to do anything at all. Which he probably wouldn't. More about that latter.
The problem with working against things rather than for things is that from the perspective of everyone else in the universe, he would be a champion of betrayal, and a paragon of deceitfulness, wavering and vacillating and working behind the scenes to undermine and destroy everyone elses efforts. He would be everyone's enemy and noones friend. Paladin's and anti-Paladins could concievably agree to only one thing - "Let's kill that b#$@#$ before he does the same to us."
And so from the perspective of everyone else in the universe, it would be hard to distinguish between the nuetral Paladin and the worst sort of chaotic evil. In fact, I could see alot of anti-Paladins doing thier best to emulate the philosophy of working against everyone. That's anarchy of the highest degree.
The nuetral aligned 'Paladin' would have one other serious problem. It's hard enough to know how to best bring about good or evil and render it triumphant. But at least when you are anything but neutral, you have some idea what sort of actions you should be undertaking. You don't have to guess about what your purpose in the situation is. You just put your whole heart in it and go. Good guys protect the weak, defend the innocent, preserve the peace, bring about justice, have compasion on the misfortunate and mercy on the penitant. Bad guys are doing thier best to exploit the weak, corrupt the innocent, bring about massacres, escape and subvert justice, show no pity for the misfortunate and no compassion for the helpless. The sort crisis that they ever have to face is a pretty small matter between not only deciding what quality to show but in what quantity that you avoid tipping the scales to far one way or the other. Give either side one iota, and they'll run with it to create utopia's or dystopia's or whatever they are into. It takes more than mortal wisdom to bring balance, and more wisdom to bring balance than it does to win.
And the thing is, I don't think even the gods of balance attempt this sort of thing. The literature on the subject I recall maintains that the gods of balance only observe, only judge, only record - they don't get much into intervening. They are wise enough I suppose to know that in intervening, they tip the scales and no diety of less than omnipotence can foresee or control the consequences.
So, I don't think I'd bring the concept into my games. It just doesn't seem to fit. Nuetral monks maybe, cloistered away from the universe trying to achieve enlightenment and escape it, but not crusaders going out to change it. It doesn't suit the philosophy.
The problem with working against things rather than for things is that from the perspective of everyone else in the universe, he would be a champion of betrayal, and a paragon of deceitfulness, wavering and vacillating and working behind the scenes to undermine and destroy everyone elses efforts. He would be everyone's enemy and noones friend. Paladin's and anti-Paladins could concievably agree to only one thing - "Let's kill that b#$@#$ before he does the same to us."
And so from the perspective of everyone else in the universe, it would be hard to distinguish between the nuetral Paladin and the worst sort of chaotic evil. In fact, I could see alot of anti-Paladins doing thier best to emulate the philosophy of working against everyone. That's anarchy of the highest degree.
The nuetral aligned 'Paladin' would have one other serious problem. It's hard enough to know how to best bring about good or evil and render it triumphant. But at least when you are anything but neutral, you have some idea what sort of actions you should be undertaking. You don't have to guess about what your purpose in the situation is. You just put your whole heart in it and go. Good guys protect the weak, defend the innocent, preserve the peace, bring about justice, have compasion on the misfortunate and mercy on the penitant. Bad guys are doing thier best to exploit the weak, corrupt the innocent, bring about massacres, escape and subvert justice, show no pity for the misfortunate and no compassion for the helpless. The sort crisis that they ever have to face is a pretty small matter between not only deciding what quality to show but in what quantity that you avoid tipping the scales to far one way or the other. Give either side one iota, and they'll run with it to create utopia's or dystopia's or whatever they are into. It takes more than mortal wisdom to bring balance, and more wisdom to bring balance than it does to win.
And the thing is, I don't think even the gods of balance attempt this sort of thing. The literature on the subject I recall maintains that the gods of balance only observe, only judge, only record - they don't get much into intervening. They are wise enough I suppose to know that in intervening, they tip the scales and no diety of less than omnipotence can foresee or control the consequences.
So, I don't think I'd bring the concept into my games. It just doesn't seem to fit. Nuetral monks maybe, cloistered away from the universe trying to achieve enlightenment and escape it, but not crusaders going out to change it. It doesn't suit the philosophy.
Amazing Triangle
Explorer
In was in Dragon 310 on page 53 (3.5) called Incarnate.
PDF with Incarnate in it
[sblock=Abilities list] Incarnate’ Class Abilities:
Elemental Affinity(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate gains an affinity to either Fire & Water –or– Air & Earth. Once chosen, the Incarnate cannot change his/her
affinity. This choice affects the Elemental Burst, Energy Resistance, & Elemental Minion Class Features.
Detect Imbalance(DR310 p52) – Similar to Detect Undead, but detects creatures with an alignment subtype, but not the specific subtype.
Smite Extremist(DR310 p52) – Add Charisma modifier to the attack roll & +1/class level damage. Must be declared before the attack is made & if the target is not
Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, or Chaotic Evil, then the smite has no effect.
Elemental Burst(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate is able to make a ranged touch attack (max range of 60’) that does 1d4 + Charisma modifier damage of both of his/her
Elemental Affinity energies (i.e., a total of 2d4 + (2 x Charisma modifier damage)). Incarnates with ‘Fire & Water’ affinity do Fire & Cold damage, while
‘Air & Earth’ affinity do Electricity & Acid damage. Usable Charisma bonus times per day.
Elemental Minion(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate can summon a Medium-sized Elemental of a type matching the Incarnate’s Elemental Affinity. If not dismissed
earlier, the minion remains for 1 hour per Class level. It gains abilities based as the Incarnate goes up in level based on the “Paladin’s Mount” table(PH p45).
Energy Resistance(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate gains Energy Resistance 5 against Fire & Cold –or– Electricity & Acid, based on his/her Elemental Affinity.
Turn Outsider(DR310 p51) – Able to Turn / Destroy Outsiders as a Cleric three levels lower Turns / Destroys Undead. Usable 3 + Charisma mod. times per day.[/sblock]
They work towards Balance at all times.
PDF with Incarnate in it
[sblock=Abilities list] Incarnate’ Class Abilities:
Elemental Affinity(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate gains an affinity to either Fire & Water –or– Air & Earth. Once chosen, the Incarnate cannot change his/her
affinity. This choice affects the Elemental Burst, Energy Resistance, & Elemental Minion Class Features.
Detect Imbalance(DR310 p52) – Similar to Detect Undead, but detects creatures with an alignment subtype, but not the specific subtype.
Smite Extremist(DR310 p52) – Add Charisma modifier to the attack roll & +1/class level damage. Must be declared before the attack is made & if the target is not
Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, or Chaotic Evil, then the smite has no effect.
Elemental Burst(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate is able to make a ranged touch attack (max range of 60’) that does 1d4 + Charisma modifier damage of both of his/her
Elemental Affinity energies (i.e., a total of 2d4 + (2 x Charisma modifier damage)). Incarnates with ‘Fire & Water’ affinity do Fire & Cold damage, while
‘Air & Earth’ affinity do Electricity & Acid damage. Usable Charisma bonus times per day.
Elemental Minion(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate can summon a Medium-sized Elemental of a type matching the Incarnate’s Elemental Affinity. If not dismissed
earlier, the minion remains for 1 hour per Class level. It gains abilities based as the Incarnate goes up in level based on the “Paladin’s Mount” table(PH p45).
Energy Resistance(DR310 p52) – The Incarnate gains Energy Resistance 5 against Fire & Cold –or– Electricity & Acid, based on his/her Elemental Affinity.
Turn Outsider(DR310 p51) – Able to Turn / Destroy Outsiders as a Cleric three levels lower Turns / Destroys Undead. Usable 3 + Charisma mod. times per day.[/sblock]
They work towards Balance at all times.
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
seans23 said:
Hmm, thats weird...
I don't have the Spell Compendium... do they not give advice on deities to give those domains to? Boccob seems perfect for the Balance Domain.
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As for the OP, I can see a knightly order devoted to Active Neutrality. Heck, they could be in the employ of Mordenkainen's little wizard club...
rossik
Explorer
thank you for all the good ideas..
the paladin in game is a LN, and i think in a "lets make some law here!" guy, as others have said.
always looked at L,C,N part as "the law part/how u act in society", an G,E,N as "the person part/how u act to individuals"
yeah, thats very vague, but always helped me to explain to new players
the paladin in game is a LN, and i think in a "lets make some law here!" guy, as others have said.
always looked at L,C,N part as "the law part/how u act in society", an G,E,N as "the person part/how u act to individuals"
yeah, thats very vague, but always helped me to explain to new players
GreatLemur
Explorer
Please, folks. If you're going to discuss neutrality, for the love of God, spell it right. It's right there in the thread title. Just cut and paste.
A setting could certainly be devised where this would make sense, but it is a very, very silly idea. The whole idea of characters actively maintaining a balance between good and evil (and/or law and chaos) assumes a level of moral abstraction that pretty much only exists in fantasy roleplaying games. I don't think there's any reason for our characters to act like they've actually read the alignment section of the Player's Handbook.Jürgen Hubert said:
Now, that brings up an interesting question: If a character selflessly follows an absurd worldview--perhaps to the extreme of terrorism--for the purpose of maintaining the safety and vitality of civilizaton in the long term, are they good, neutral, or evil? I don't know if the nine alignments have a place for "essentially good but horribly misguided", but I think characters who use "non-good" methods for a good cause are generally lumped in with the apathetic and mildly selfish in the "neutral" band.Patryn of Elvenshae said:
AFGNCAAP
First Post
GreatLemur said:
Well, on a related tangent...
The thread about scoundrels of each AL had James Bond as an example of a LN scoundrel character. He's all about queen & country, but he's also quite ruthless (notably, acting in a world filled with folks who're just as ruthless, if not even more so). He works for the good guys, but does some pretty severe things in order to achieve his goals. I think the Lawful bit of his AL also reflects that he is part of the lawful authority (the law permits him a discretionary licence to kill, which he'll easily use if it means his goals can be achieved).
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