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5E Never Give Them Unlimited Black Powder

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
More like the sapper suddenly finding out his uncivilized savages living in wooden walled settlements at best developed deep-footed stone walls overnight, are tossing alchemical fire down on him, are all resistant to fire, and suddenly his mines have a 50% misfire chance that wasn't there before, because the DM didn't like how he took out the walls of the last settlement.
You're the sapper in my example. You have a self-inflicted problem with gunpowder, and every time someone points out how either the rules or an easy situational change can fix it/ameliorate it you respond by presenting a new reason why that won't work. I mean, when it was pointed out how slow and costly it is to make a relatively small amount of gunpowder, you said magic and high rolls fix that (and no one knows what you're talking about, because there's no such magic in the printed material and high rolls don't do anything by the rules, so more self-inflicted problems). When people pointed out that it's equally easy for the bad guys to get and use gunpowder, you first attempted to restrict discussion to orcs and goblins (because, yeah, if you can the gold and time to make gunpowder you're still fighting orcs and goblins) and waving away all of the many enemies that aren't orcs and goblins. When it was pointed out that there's no reason orcs and goblins can make, or steal, or trade for gunpowder, you said, no, because they're savages and barbaric and can't do those things because... I don't know, lots of "savage" or "barbaric" cultures had trade and often pretty advanced skills and knowledge. You present an ever changing cartoon argument that seems designed not to find a coherent story or game, but instead make sure that you can continue to advance the idea that gunpowder is game-breaking if a GM lets it in. Sure, if you keep shooting yourself in the foot, gunpowder is very dangerous. I recommend that you stop shooting your own foot.
 

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Azzy

Newtype
The vast majority of monsters are not immune to gunpowder. that's a fact. The vast number by type are also not going to USE gunpowder, unless you're playing a primary-humanoids campaigns. In short, you're now talking about changing the monsters so gunpowder is useless as a fix...

No, but there are a lot that are resistent/immune to fire/nonmagical damage, others with craptons of hp, etc. Most monsters don't need gunpowder—they have other abilities.

Then suddenly this stuff they jump through hoops being able to make is now available to creatures that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came. Okie-dokie. Instant civilizing and educational systems, OR, suddenly this hard to make and procure stuff is now being sold to the enemies of the PC's, and all humanity, by unknown parties.

Well, if you introduce gunpowder to your setting and it becomes as common as you suggest, then those creature "that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came" (which is kinda an icky statement, BTW) will adapt to it (just like Native Americans did). Sounds like your humanoids are very two dimensional if they are the enemies of all humanity. Even then, "unknown parties" have a long history of selling arms to the enemies of their enemies in the real world. BTW, is it hard to procure or commonly available in you scenario—I can't keep up?

So, these examples aren't selling it to me.

Your scenarios aren't selling me, either. So, I guess we're at an impasse.

The supplies are, by default, assumed to be available in most larger settlements, and are certainly within the price range of them.

Wait, I thought that they were hard to procure. So, even if available in most large settlements, in what quantity is it available—to the vendors need to resupply their stocks or does the gunpowder and its ingredient just magically resupply after the PCs break the settlements economy (again).

Your restricting that supply is now making house rules. Just be aware you are doing it.

Given that gunpowder avaiability is not a default in D&D, determining how available it (or anything else) is is not a house rule. Different settlements, cultures, and locations will have different resources.

Gunpowder hoarders are far less dangerous then fireball casting wizards walking around the streets, but if you want to be DM Arbitrary about the threat levels, go right ahead.

Oh? That seems rather counter to your previous assertions.

You need one rank to assist in helping with alchemy in 3e/Pathfinder. NPC's can do most of the work. Referring to 3e rules, higher skill targets for the DC enable you to make more stuff. There are also magical tools that greatly accelerate making alchemical items, as well as that old game breaker, Fabricate.

Well, in 3e, who needs gunpowder when you can be CoDzilla? Oh no, there goes Tokyo! Thankfully, I no longer play 3e or PF. I'm not going to bother looking up the 3e SRD to see the specifics of fabricate, but in 5e it would require proficiency in the appropriate artisan's tools (which the DM will need to decide if it uses alchemist's tools or a new "powdermaker's tools" or some such), and still require the raw material that would otherwise be needed to make it. It's also a 4th-level spell, so there is another resource cost.

As Create Wondrous Items is one of the most popular of feats, making your own tools isn't hard, and they pay for themselves VERY quickly. Artificially not letting them is again a DM Fiat ruling.

CoDzilla. But Create Wonderous Items is used to create magical items, has a cost in both mundane resouces and XP, and you could use it to create more interesting things.

Alchemist Classes also generally can make alchemical items far quicker than normal people, too. They usually have it baked right into the class.

If the rules you use have an alchemict class (I guess that's a PF thing). Again, depending on the rules you use, alchemy way not even be what is used to create gunpowder.
 


You need one rank to assist in helping with alchemy in 3e/Pathfinder. NPC's can do most of the work. Referring to 3e rules, higher skill targets for the DC enable you to make more stuff. There are also magical tools that greatly accelerate making alchemical items, as well as that old game breaker, Fabricate.

As Create Wondrous Items is one of the most popular of feats, making your own tools isn't hard, and they pay for themselves VERY quickly. Artificially not letting them is again a DM Fiat ruling.

Alchemist Classes also generally can make alchemical items far quicker than normal people, too. They usually have it baked right into the class.
Just to clarify: What edition are we talking about here? The thread is labelled 5e, but there seems to be some confusion.
 

Slit518

Explorer
Have any of you DMs out there made the mistake of giving the party an arbitrarily large amount of explosives? How much damage did it do, and what got blow'd up?

The players were once sieging a castle which was taken over by orcs when the previous owner of it was on a campaign of his own. The players had found several barrels of gunpowder, they collapsed a large tunnel and room, impeding travel through the area or eliminating it all together.

This room was also filled with dozens of orcs whom were training. None but a few miraculously survived.

The gun powder helped them bypass a large, potential very deadly encounter.

In another campaign the players were chasing a fleet of ships, this portion was seafaring. The ship had a gunpowder room, the players looted the treasure and sunk the ship by blowing up the powder room.
 


Coroc

Hero
And you may or may not have experienced this, but from the player's side, this comes across as DM Fiat asshattery.
"Oh, your gunpowder is missing! It got stolen!"
"Oh, it's raining today, your gunpowder is wet and can't be used!"
"Oh, your kegs all swelled up and sprang leaks, and its unusable."
"Oh, you didn't go back far enough, and you're taking incidental damage!" -Note, this can backfire if the PC's realize you just expanded the blast radius of the explosion, and how they can do it.

---You may think that's clever drawbacks, but that's not how the PC's are going to take it. It's going to come across as arbitrary nerfing.
"Oh, your magic sword is missing! it got stolen!"
"Oh, it's raining! you can't use your bow!"
"Oh, your armor is wet and the straps are loose, it won't stay attached!"
"Oh, your sword hilt is slippery, and flies from your hand!"
"Oh, that fireball has a bigger blast radius then you expected, and you're caught in the area of effect!"

---YOur 'clever tricks' are coming across exactly the same way as the other 'believable stuff' I just posted.

Giving you a like because you have got a point here. I have got very mature players, but some of them can really snap if you take away a beloved magic item of their characters by e.g. theft. I kind of tried to point this out by adding the "boring" in paranthesis to the bullets in my original post.

With gun powder it still is different in my oppinion. Is the gunpowder always the same quality? How does it need to be contained or stored?
Is its effect cast in strict game rules like a barrel will cause 7d6 explosion? What about two barrels is it 14 d6 then? What if i take 10 barrels and put the conntent into a big barrel reinforced with iron rings on the outside and filled with shrapnell?

See that is the path i suggest if you encounter problems, and it is fair specific with a volatile chemical mixture like gunpowder.

But let us assume you would still view that as "taking away a good magic item" then i suggest to use the consequences of that item being used:

A fireball can be redirected in last second or spellshaped. An ignited gunpowder barrel though - not so much. You are likely to damage structures e.g. the city wall which should protect from the attacking orc horde, or cause collateral damage. That is absolutely fair game, think of Elric and his sword Stormbringer, which draws the souls out of his friends when he cannot control it.
 

Coroc

Hero
The vast majority of monsters are not immune to gunpowder. that's a fact. The vast number by type are also not going to USE gunpowder, unless you're playing a primary-humanoids campaigns. In short, you're now talking about changing the monsters so gunpowder is useless as a fix...

Then suddenly this stuff they jump through hoops being able to make is now available to creatures that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came. Okie-dokie. Instant civilizing and educational systems, OR, suddenly this hard to make and procure stuff is now being sold to the enemies of the PC's, and all humanity, by unknown parties.

So, these examples aren't selling it to me.

The supplies are, by default, assumed to be available in most larger settlements, and are certainly within the price range of them.
Your restricting that supply is now making house rules. Just be aware you are doing it.

Gunpowder hoarders are far less dangerous then fireball casting wizards walking around the streets, but if you want to be DM Arbitrary about the threat levels, go right ahead.

You need one rank to assist in helping with alchemy in 3e/Pathfinder. NPC's can do most of the work. Referring to 3e rules, higher skill targets for the DC enable you to make more stuff. There are also magical tools that greatly accelerate making alchemical items, as well as that old game breaker, Fabricate.

As Create Wondrous Items is one of the most popular of feats, making your own tools isn't hard, and they pay for themselves VERY quickly. Artificially not letting them is again a DM Fiat ruling.

Alchemist Classes also generally can make alchemical items far quicker than normal people, too. They usually have it baked right into the class.
Btw did you know in late Renaissance Europe there was a travelling clerk of the king named the "Salpeterer" (Salpeter is an old name for chemical KNO3, and a main ingredient for black powder). So this Salpeterer had nearly unlimited power in collecting Salpeter, because it got rare and was in heavy demand with the wide spread use of black powder weapons.
One of the resources he did collect was, were people and cattle peed regularly, such as the wooden planks of a houses, backwall or a corner of the bedroom or the floor of a stable. He was authorized to confiscate these wooden planks on which salpeter resign cumulated, even if it meant literally cutting a corner out of a building.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
Btw did you know in late Renaissance Europe there was a travelling clerk of the king named the "Salpeterer" (Salpeter is an old name for chemical KNO3, and a main ingredient for black powder). So this Salpeterer had nearly unlimited power in collecting Salpeter, because it got rare and was in heavy demand with the wide spread use of black powder weapons.
One of the resources he did collect was, were people and cattle peed regularly, such as the wooden planks of a houses, backwall or a corner of the bedroom or the floor of a stable. He was authorized to confiscate these wooden planks on which salpeter resign cumulated, even if it meant literally cutting a corner out of a building.
yes, the primary source of saltpeter was the crystals that accumulate under any well-aged pile of excrement.
During WWI and II, one of the primary sources of nitrates to make gunpowder were the vast guano reserves under the cliffs of Chile, where billions of seabirds flock to raise their young. Those literal hills of birdshit powered guns on both sides of the war. The ships traveling back and forth from the ports were prime targets for enemy navies.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
Giving you a like because you have got a point here. I have got very mature players, but some of them can really snap if you take away a beloved magic item of their characters by e.g. theft. I kind of tried to point this out by adding the "boring" in paranthesis to the bullets in my original post.

With gun powder it still is different in my oppinion. Is the gunpowder always the same quality? How does it need to be contained or stored?
Is its effect cast in strict game rules like a barrel will cause 7d6 explosion? What about two barrels is it 14 d6 then? What if i take 10 barrels and put the conntent into a big barrel reinforced with iron rings on the outside and filled with shrapnell?

See that is the path i suggest if you encounter problems, and it is fair specific with a volatile chemical mixture like gunpowder.

But let us assume you would still view that as "taking away a good magic item" then i suggest to use the consequences of that item being used:

A fireball can be redirected in last second or spellshaped. An ignited gunpowder barrel though - not so much. You are likely to damage structures e.g. the city wall which should protect from the attacking orc horde, or cause collateral damage. That is absolutely fair game, think of Elric and his sword Stormbringer, which draws the souls out of his friends when he cannot control it.
Outright theft or Fiat Ka-boom are going to be seen as arbitrary, so many of the recommendations here aren't feasible or in any way linked to gunpowder... they are just linked to explosive weapons, which any wizard or cleric potentially qualifies as.

Playing on the particular weaknesses of gunpowder is fine. Making everyone and their monstrous mother suddenly aware of them is not.
 


Aelryinth

Explorer
No, but there are a lot that are resistent/immune to fire/nonmagical damage, others with craptons of hp, etc. Most monsters don't need gunpowder—they have other abilities.



Well, if you introduce gunpowder to your setting and it becomes as common as you suggest, then those creature "that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came" (which is kinda an icky statement, BTW) will adapt to it (just like Native Americans did). Sounds like your humanoids are very two dimensional if they are the enemies of all humanity. Even then, "unknown parties" have a long history of selling arms to the enemies of their enemies in the real world. BTW, is it hard to procure or commonly available in you scenario—I can't keep up?



Your scenarios aren't selling me, either. So, I guess we're at an impasse.



Wait, I thought that they were hard to procure. So, even if available in most large settlements, in what quantity is it available—to the vendors need to resupply their stocks or does the gunpowder and its ingredient just magically resupply after the PCs break the settlements economy (again).



Given that gunpowder avaiability is not a default in D&D, determining how available it (or anything else) is is not a house rule. Different settlements, cultures, and locations will have different resources.



Oh? That seems rather counter to your previous assertions.



Well, in 3e, who needs gunpowder when you can be CoDzilla? Oh no, there goes Tokyo! Thankfully, I no longer play 3e or PF. I'm not going to bother looking up the 3e SRD to see the specifics of fabricate, but in 5e it would require proficiency in the appropriate artisan's tools (which the DM will need to decide if it uses alchemist's tools or a new "powdermaker's tools" or some such), and still require the raw material that would otherwise be needed to make it. It's also a 4th-level spell, so there is another resource cost.



CoDzilla. But Create Wonderous Items is used to create magical items, has a cost in both mundane resouces and XP, and you could use it to create more interesting things.



If the rules you use have an alchemict class (I guess that's a PF thing). Again, depending on the rules you use, alchemy way not even be what is used to create gunpowder.
1) there are some with fire res/immunity. Over the overall numbers, very few. Tons of hp = use more gunpowder or set up a collapse.
2) Who said I was saying it was common?!?! The OP said the PC's are using it, potentially a lot of it. He said nothing about EVERYONE using it? You are inserting artificial facts in there to support your argument.
In any event, that still doesn't mean your enemies have it overnight, especially a whole culture.
3) Given you keep modifying the scenarios away from the narrative I'm using with artificial evolution of the enemies, I'm not surprised.
4) If we're talking gunpowder, the raw elements of charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter are NOT hard to procure. They are literally commodities. 'Hard to procure' generally just means 'go to a bigger city, you're exceeding the wealth cap'. If the base rules don't call out going on a quest for rare elements, they, like material components for spells, are considered to be easily available. It's the default rule. You don't have to go on quests for materials to make tindertwigs, which are basically tiny versions of the same thing.
i.e. the standard rule is that unless it has unique/extremely rare comps, you can just buy them. And if it's actual gunpowder, that's truth.
5) Not at all. The wizard doesn't have to haul around gunpowder at all, and can unleash several fireballs at will from a great distance away, doing more damage then gunpowder and so killing people, and then do it again tomorrow.
So, considering gunpowder a 'massive threat' when these walking cannons are running around is stupid on its face.
Gunpowder's ability comes from the fact you can build up an arsenal of it, and unleash it all at once, AND from the fact it gives a non-spellcaster a KABOOM ability. It takes a much longer time to make bullets than to shoot them, after all.
Note the OP is Players getting unlimited blackpowder access. Building up a stockpile for use in situations is how you use the stuff... and means that when needed, you can get more fireballs/day then a wizard, and all at once, too. that's how wars are basically fought.
6) Because not everyone is a Caster or level 18? CoDzilla is high-end power. Gunpowder is low-end power. A level 1 can light a fuse and launch a keg! True Ubah powah!... oh wait, we just call that a grenade in modern day, ignoring how awesome it would be in a magical world to have your own fireballs as a non-caster.
7) Making magic items is a leverage thing anywhere, agreed. Making magical tools is the same.
8) Alchemist in PF, artificer in D&D, and other systems generally have magical alchemists in some form or another, too. The balance issues with gunpowder are still there... it's a world-changing advance in technology for a good reason, after all.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
You're the sapper in my example. You have a self-inflicted problem with gunpowder, and every time someone points out how either the rules or an easy situational change can fix it/ameliorate it you respond by presenting a new reason why that won't work. I mean, when it was pointed out how slow and costly it is to make a relatively small amount of gunpowder, you said magic and high rolls fix that (and no one knows what you're talking about, because there's no such magic in the printed material and high rolls don't do anything by the rules, so more self-inflicted problems). When people pointed out that it's equally easy for the bad guys to get and use gunpowder, you first attempted to restrict discussion to orcs and goblins (because, yeah, if you can the gold and time to make gunpowder you're still fighting orcs and goblins) and waving away all of the many enemies that aren't orcs and goblins. When it was pointed out that there's no reason orcs and goblins can make, or steal, or trade for gunpowder, you said, no, because they're savages and barbaric and can't do those things because... I don't know, lots of "savage" or "barbaric" cultures had trade and often pretty advanced skills and knowledge. You present an ever changing cartoon argument that seems designed not to find a coherent story or game, but instead make sure that you can continue to advance the idea that gunpowder is game-breaking if a GM lets it in. Sure, if you keep shooting yourself in the foot, gunpowder is very dangerous. I recommend that you stop shooting your own foot.
So, you went with the personal insults instead of reason. Hey, great. I was looking past it. Ad hominem idiocy is ad hominem idiocy.

Sure, I was referencing 3e, but the fact is that cost and production issues can be worked past with manpower, and magical tools to help crafters are ubiquitous EVERYWHERE. THAT WAS THE POINT. The rest was examples on how to do so, which you promptly turned into an edition war.

If you are suddenly restricting supply by arbitrary means, then they don't have unlimited gunpowder access now, do they, which means the point of the OP is now moot. Hiring more people to make you the stuff faster costs the exact same as paying one person to make it themself... it's all still man-hours of labor.

When people like you attempted to show that their enemies could get gunpowder, I SHOWED THEM THAT IS STUPID since a very big chunk of their enemies cannot use, understand, or reasonably have access to gunpowder, and so their broad-stroke-fixes-all reasoning was dumb on its face. A party of PC monster hunters logically will NEVER have an enemy that uses gunpowder, without blatant DM shenanigans.

I specifically used the barbaric and savage language explicitly to denote that said orcs and goblins are barbarians and savages, not that 'oh we misunderstood their culture, they are actually extremely advanced, we are so sorry for misjudging you.' i.e. you're warping the scenario.

Hey, look at the default orcs and goblins. They have crap for crafting skills and technology. My example was ON POINT, thank you for not twisting it to suit yourself.

The idea that their whole society will then be able to promptly make, trade, or steal the gunpowder, when the PC's can barely get ahold of it, and overnight they all have keggers of boom makes no logical sense, either. Sure, in a couple generations they might have an alternative. But gunpowder weapons don't spread everywhere that fast, especially to your hated enemies. Your solution of 'PC's have it now, monsters have it next adventure', is dumb on its face.

You topped off your arguments with 'dangerous gunpowder' examples and high level retaliation that could apply equally to any spellcaster blowing things up, meaning they aren't examples at all, they are knee-jerk responses that will be seen as the responses of a jerk, and Fiat Hand of God coming down to say, No, no, no unlimited gunpowder, I goofed, mm-k?

So, sorry, I missed my foot every time. But by the way you're dancing around and continually changing the facts to suit you, I suspect I hit yours several times.

Unlimited gunpowder can, will, and has permanently changed the flavor of campaigns. It changed the way the world made war. So, in the end, if you introduce it, you are changing the very nature of a campaign, because of the power it has and holds. We only have to look at history to know the truth of that.

Players are not dumb, and will find ways to exploit it. It's VERY exploitable. It changed the world! Some might choose to let it ride, but others... well, it's the table you're at, I suppose.

There's a funny rule in GURPS Fantasy's main world where the spellcasters there actively and viciously hunt down anyone using gunpowder weapons simply because of the threat it offers. I thought that both funny and appropriate.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So, you went with the personal insults instead of reason. Hey, great. I was looking past it. Ad hominem idiocy is ad hominem idiocy.

Sure, I was referencing 3e, but the fact is that cost and production issues can be worked past with manpower, and magical tools to help crafters are ubiquitous EVERYWHERE. THAT WAS THE POINT. The rest was examples on how to do so, which you promptly turned into an edition war.

If you are suddenly restricting supply by arbitrary means, then they don't have unlimited gunpowder access now, do they, which means the point of the OP is now moot. Hiring more people to make you the stuff faster costs the exact same as paying one person to make it themself... it's all still man-hours of labor.

When people like you attempted to show that their enemies could get gunpowder, I SHOWED THEM THAT IS STUPID since a very big chunk of their enemies cannot use, understand, or reasonably have access to gunpowder, and so their broad-stroke-fixes-all reasoning was dumb on its face. A party of PC monster hunters logically will NEVER have an enemy that uses gunpowder, without blatant DM shenanigans.

I specifically used the barbaric and savage language explicitly to denote that said orcs and goblins are barbarians and savages, not that 'oh we misunderstood their culture, they are actually extremely advanced, we are so sorry for misjudging you.' i.e. you're warping the scenario.

Hey, look at the default orcs and goblins. They have crap for crafting skills and technology. My example was ON POINT, thank you for not twisting it to suit yourself.

The idea that their whole society will then be able to promptly make, trade, or steal the gunpowder, when the PC's can barely get ahold of it, and overnight they all have keggers of boom makes no logical sense, either. Sure, in a couple generations they might have an alternative. But gunpowder weapons don't spread everywhere that fast, especially to your hated enemies. Your solution of 'PC's have it now, monsters have it next adventure', is dumb on its face.

You topped off your arguments with 'dangerous gunpowder' examples and high level retaliation that could apply equally to any spellcaster blowing things up, meaning they aren't examples at all, they are knee-jerk responses that will be seen as the responses of a jerk, and Fiat Hand of God coming down to say, No, no, no unlimited gunpowder, I goofed, mm-k?

So, sorry, I missed my foot every time. But by the way you're dancing around and continually changing the facts to suit you, I suspect I hit yours several times.

Unlimited gunpowder can, will, and has permanently changed the flavor of campaigns. It changed the way the world made war. So, in the end, if you introduce it, you are changing the very nature of a campaign, because of the power it has and holds. We only have to look at history to know the truth of that.

Players are not dumb, and will find ways to exploit it. It's VERY exploitable. It changed the world! Some might choose to let it ride, but others... well, it's the table you're at, I suppose.

There's a funny rule in GURPS Fantasy's main world where the spellcasters there actively and viciously hunt down anyone using gunpowder weapons simply because of the threat it offers. I thought that both funny and appropriate.
Ad homs are when I argue against what you say because of things about you, and none of my response does that. I'm very critical of the things you've said, but I'm not critical of you in place of addressing the things you've said. And, no players aren't dumb, but there's no reason monsters have to be -- that's the issues at hand. If you let the optional gunpowder rules (they were optional in 3e as well) into your game and then create a situation that your players can exploit while finding reasons nothing that might balance that works (monsters using gunpowder, enforcing crafting rules, etc.), then the problem isn't gunpowder, it's your self-inflicted problems of how you've chosen to implement gunpowder.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
Ad homs are when I argue against what you say because of things about you, and none of my response does that. I'm very critical of the things you've said, but I'm not critical of you in place of addressing the things you've said. And, no players aren't dumb, but there's no reason monsters have to be -- that's the issues at hand. If you let the optional gunpowder rules (they were optional in 3e as well) into your game and then create a situation that your players can exploit while finding reasons nothing that might balance that works (monsters using gunpowder, enforcing crafting rules, etc.), then the problem isn't gunpowder, it's your self-inflicted problems of how you've chosen to implement gunpowder.
There are indeed plenty of monsters who are dumb... it's right there in their stat blocks.
Optional gunpowder does indeed create problems, but the whole nature of my replies is based on the OP giving gunpowder to players, not the whole world having it, which you immediately turned around as the solution to. If you do that, you vastly change the nature of the campaign world, not just hand a tool to PC's, and the hackneyed 'solutions' to the problem are going to come across very poorly in that instance.
I also don't assume a home-brew campaign, where you can change as you like, and instead stay PC focused, which means people who play modules, including adventure paths, and how gunpowder can change things when the written scenario is NOT designed with gunpowder in mind.

Personally, I love the fellow above who just had flintlocks and cartridges, and that's as far as the players took it... but that's the players going along with things, instead of looking for toys to play with.

IMC, I just don't allow it in normal form, because it blows up spontaneously. People know the formulas, know they exist, but nobody dares use them except inside an anti-magic shell... and having one of those permanently around one of your guns, your powder magazine, and your ammo transports is the very definition of expensive. Only hellaciously rich locations with lots of money are going to have such things... and not high quality, since they don't exactly get in a lot of practice.

Finding a way to stop the ambient fire spirits from blowing the heck out of the stuff without anti-magic in place is the goal of many an alchemist. They tend to go through a lot of labs... and the fire spirits love to tag around them and find other stuff to blow up, too...

So, in short, it's potentially there, but priced so high the usefulness is out of reach. There's the potential for a solution, and THAT would be the target of the PC's, at which point spreading that knowledge would cause an evolution in the whole campaign.

Until then, it's fireballs and ballista instead of mortars and cannons.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
There are indeed plenty of monsters who are dumb... it's right there in their stat blocks.
Optional gunpowder does indeed create problems, but the whole nature of my replies is based on the OP giving gunpowder to players, not the whole world having it, which you immediately turned around as the solution to. If you do that, you vastly change the nature of the campaign world, not just hand a tool to PC's, and the hackneyed 'solutions' to the problem are going to come across very poorly in that instance.
I also don't assume a home-brew campaign, where you can change as you like, and instead stay PC focused, which means people who play modules, including adventure paths, and how gunpowder can change things when the written scenario is NOT designed with gunpowder in mind.

Personally, I love the fellow above who just had flintlocks and cartridges, and that's as far as the players took it... but that's the players going along with things, instead of looking for toys to play with.

IMC, I just don't allow it in normal form, because it blows up spontaneously. People know the formulas, know they exist, but nobody dares use them except inside an anti-magic shell... and having one of those permanently around one of your guns, your powder magazine, and your ammo transports is the very definition of expensive. Only hellaciously rich locations with lots of money are going to have such things... and not high quality, since they don't exactly get in a lot of practice.

Finding a way to stop the ambient fire spirits from blowing the heck out of the stuff without anti-magic in place is the goal of many an alchemist. They tend to go through a lot of labs... and the fire spirits love to tag around them and find other stuff to blow up, too...

So, in short, it's potentially there, but priced so high the usefulness is out of reach. There's the potential for a solution, and THAT would be the target of the PC's, at which point spreading that knowledge would cause an evolution in the whole campaign.

Until then, it's fireballs and ballista instead of mortars and cannons.
There's nothing in the OP that says only the PCs get gunpowder, just asking for stories about when PCs got a lot of gunpowder and used it. You've created this argument where ONLY the PCs get gunpowder, which it appears you've just been arguing for instead of actually using. That makes your willingness to continue to create special arguments to keep that weird premise alive even less appreciated. You've essentially picked your own interpretation, one you don't even follow, and decided to spend pages on arguing for it via special pleading, and for no good reason I can see. It didn't illuminate anything and certainly didn't answer the OP's prompt, which was for actual game events where gunpowder featured.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
There's nothing in the OP that says only the PCs get gunpowder, just asking for stories about when PCs got a lot of gunpowder and used it. You've created this argument where ONLY the PCs get gunpowder, which it appears you've just been arguing for instead of actually using. That makes your willingness to continue to create special arguments to keep that weird premise alive even less appreciated. You've essentially picked your own interpretation, one you don't even follow, and decided to spend pages on arguing for it via special pleading, and for no good reason I can see. It didn't illuminate anything and certainly didn't answer the OP's prompt, which was for actual game events where gunpowder featured.
And you filled in additional facts of the campaign and world that WERE NOT GIVEN US, where I did not, which promptly makes your whole assumption above invalid. Congrats for wasted typing!

In other words, I stayed true to the original premise and what it portended, and looked at it through the lens of that, while you promptly loaded the whole thing with tons of other details and solutions that fit your spontaneously created details, and not the original post... and I still pointed out the weaknesses of those dutifully enough, faithfully adding more spontaneously created details to your own, while at the same time defining them strictly enough that you had to go and create even MORE changes to shoot them down.

As for the actual game events, you instead presented hacked solutions and DM Fiat stuff, not actual game events, either. I actually started off my posts with IMC, no gunpowder is used, and why, which I just elaborated on... you know, actual game events, because I am aware of the changes gunpowder brings to a campaign!

Yes, wonderful. Special, indeed, giving the OP what he wanted, instead of extemperous solutions and non-existent campaign details shifted on the fly to favor arguments.

So, no, I wasn't giving you any special consideration for your points, either. You spun stuff out of nowhere, I at least grabbed from the history of the game and existing monsters and their stats (which you basically just advocated tossing out). When you lowered yourself to starting personal attacks, hey, that just shows you don't really have a defensible position.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
And you filled in additional facts of the campaign and world that WERE NOT GIVEN US, where I did not, which promptly makes your whole assumption above invalid. Congrats for wasted typing!

In other words, I stayed true to the original premise and what it portended, and looked at it through the lens of that, while you promptly loaded the whole thing with tons of other details and solutions that fit your spontaneously created details, and not the original post... and I still pointed out the weaknesses of those dutifully enough, faithfully adding more spontaneously created details to your own, while at the same time defining them strictly enough that you had to go and create even MORE changes to shoot them down.

As for the actual game events, you instead presented hacked solutions and DM Fiat stuff, not actual game events, either. I actually started off my posts with IMC, no gunpowder is used, and why, which I just elaborated on... you know, actual game events, because I am aware of the changes gunpowder brings to a campaign!

Yes, wonderful. Special, indeed, giving the OP what he wanted, instead of extemperous solutions and non-existent campaign details shifted on the fly to favor arguments.

So, no, I wasn't giving you any special consideration for your points, either. You spun stuff out of nowhere, I at least grabbed from the history of the game and existing monsters and their stats (which you basically just advocated tossing out). When you lowered yourself to starting personal attacks, hey, that just shows you don't really have a defensible position.

Um, no, because it wasn't a hypothetical campaign world what-if but a request for stories from existing games where gunpowder was used. It took until you said you thought there was a world proposed in the OP to realise you were on that kick instead of thinking you were arguing how it should be in general or saying that was your problem in your game. I mean, the ask was for stories from your game and you started talking about terrible problems with gunpowder which seemed to come from your game. That's what was asked for. So, you got a lot of replies trying to help, which you kept shooting down with weird claims of truth. Now I also know that you misunderstood the OP, thought, somehow, that it postulated a hypothetical world where only PCs have lots of gunpowder, and was asking what that looked like. I still don't know how you got some of that, but okay, I guess I see the pattern. Although it's odd that it's only here that you offer that you think the OP demanded your responses -- seems like that would have been a better response much earlier on the thread, but, hey, I certainly didn't catch on to your misreading until now so maybe that works. Especially since you still think the OP demands your responses.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
Um, no, because it wasn't a hypothetical campaign world what-if but a request for stories from existing games where gunpowder was used. It took until you said you thought there was a world proposed in the OP to realise you were on that kick instead of thinking you were arguing how it should be in general or saying that was your problem in your game. I mean, the ask was for stories from your game and you started talking about terrible problems with gunpowder which seemed to come from your game. That's what was asked for. So, you got a lot of replies trying to help, which you kept shooting down with weird claims of truth. Now I also know that you misunderstood the OP, thought, somehow, that it postulated a hypothetical world where only PCs have lots of gunpowder, and was asking what that looked like. I still don't know how you got some of that, but okay, I guess I see the pattern. Although it's odd that it's only here that you offer that you think the OP demanded your responses -- seems like that would have been a better response much earlier on the thread, but, hey, I certainly didn't catch on to your misreading until now so maybe that works. Especially since you still think the OP demands your responses.
Wow, you are really centered on me, me, me for some reason, and still keeping up with the insults.
I was not the first person to say there were problems, and instead of it being smart that I was adhering to the OP's question and not going beyond it, it became all my fault that I didn't go beyond it, while you invented a whole bunch of new stuff for him and are pure in intent.

The replies and solutions weren't for me, and if they were, I certainly didn't take them that way. They were just a random sauce of DM Fiat that basically didn't do anything that had anything to do with gunpowder. Indeed, the general response from the first post was that doing what he was going to do was going to cause problems, and then others chimed in saying they could fix the problems easy as pie with DM Fiat nonsense.

And somehow, in the middle of all that, it became all about me?

Wow, you definitely have your blame filters on pretty heavy. It's showing you patterns where there are none, turning truths into blame, and consideration into obsession. Wow. Like, seriously. That is the biggest heap of nonsense I've ever read on these boards, turning your own mistakes into blaming me for them.

And, in that note, I'm done with the thread, because all you're doing is flaming me now, and I'm responding in kind, and I don't want to.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Wow, you are really centered on me, me, me for some reason, and still keeping up with the insults.
There was no insult in there. I was acknowledging I was incorrect before, that the problem wasn't you trying to showcase the problems you have in your own game and arguing against any suggestions to fix it but that you've misunderstood what the OP asked for and were trying to deliver on that, honestly and earnestly.

As for being fixated on you, you're the primary responder in this thread, and I'm responding to you quoting and speaking to me directly. Is there someone else I to whom I should respond to address the things you said to me?
I was not the first person to say there were problems, and instead of it being smart that I was adhering to the OP's question and not going beyond it, it became all my fault that I didn't go beyond it, while you invented a whole bunch of new stuff for him and are pure in intent.
The OP's question was:

Have any of you DMs out there made the mistake of giving the party an arbitrarily large amount of explosives? How much damage did it do, and what got blow'd up?

That's an ask for a story where something happened in your game already, not an imagining of a hypothetical situation.

The replies and solutions weren't for me, and if they were, I certainly didn't take them that way. They were just a random sauce of DM Fiat that basically didn't do anything that had anything to do with gunpowder. Indeed, the general response from the first post was that doing what he was going to do was going to cause problems, and then others chimed in saying they could fix the problems easy as pie with DM Fiat nonsense.

And somehow, in the middle of all that, it became all about me?

Wow, you definitely have your blame filters on pretty heavy. It's showing you patterns where there are none, turning truths into blame, and consideration into obsession. Wow. Like, seriously. That is the biggest heap of nonsense I've ever read on these boards, turning your own mistakes into blaming me for them.

And, in that note, I'm done with the thread, because all you're doing is flaming me now, and I'm responding in kind, and I don't want to.
I said you had honestly mistaken the ask in the OP and that I understood where you were coming from, now. It's somewhat clear, though, that you aren't reading me, or perhaps I'm doing a very bad job of communicating, because you're still talking about the OP says something it doesn't and saying I'm insulting and flaming you when I'm not. I did, upthread, get snarky with the petard statement, but, as I said just before this, that was because I hadn't grokked where you were coming from. I do know, and I see it, but you've misunderstood the OP to get there. That's cool, stuff like that happens all the time, I do it often enough (and try to remember to eat my crow when I do). I misunderstood you until about three posts ago, and my last post was both acknowledging that and trying to point out where you mistook the OP. No insults intended.
 

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