D&D 5E Never Give Them Unlimited Black Powder

[Aelryinth]

OP just said Black Powder, not alchemical black powder. Not that that makes any real difference - it still needs to be made from something and requires time and money to make. If they're building some kind of massive alchemical factory that attracts attention.

I really don't get it. What is supposed to happen here? The PCs are going to take out there enemies by cleverly smuggling barrels of black powder into their headquarters and lighting a fuse, while making sure they are out of range when they explode?

This is a ... bad thing?

It's a tool. It's not an "I win" button. It requires some degree of logistics and planning to make use of, and the world around them will quickly adjust if they keep pulling the same trick (the effects are not exactly all that subtle).

What massive alchemical factory. they have a lab and mix up amounts as they go, making up a few kegs. Then for cheapsies, they start blowing stuff up that was supposed to be a good hard fight, trivializing encounters repeatedly, and start breaking the structure of the setting as suddenly there's a power grab on for exploding black powder.
And there's been a LOT of conflict over what 'black powder' is, so no need to go high horsey here. Given it takes alchemy to make, it's definitely not purely gunpowder as we know it (which all comes in multiple grades, anyways)

 

[Aelryinth]

To make magic boom-powder? Sure. Why do you keep talking about black powder and gunpowder, then?

Because it's called black powder, and it works similar to gunpowder, so people are using the terms interchangeably?

 

[Don Durito]

What massive alchemical factory. they have a lab and mix up amounts as they go, making up a few kegs. Then for cheapsies, they start blowing stuff up that was supposed to be a good hard fight, trivializing encounters repeatedly, and start breaking the structure of the setting as suddenly there's a power grab on for exploding black powder.
And there's been a LOT of conflict over what 'black powder' is, so no need to go high horsey here. Given it takes alchemy to make, it's definitely not purely gunpowder as we know it (which all comes in multiple grades, anyways)

How are they trivialising encounters? If they have a few kegs how is that causing a power grab? It's gone from unlimited, to nearly unlimted, to a few kegs.

What does it matter so much if a challenging fight is easy? It should be if the party plan ahead or fight on ground they have prepared. If they blow up the evil wizard's tower with gunpowder well done them for successfully smuggling it in.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Because it's called black powder, and it works similar to gunpowder, so people are using the terms interchangeably?

Um, can you tell me which ruleset you're talking about and where it's listed?

 

[Aelryinth]

Um, can you tell me which ruleset you're talking about and where it's listed?

The one where making black powder requires an alchemy check, which I believe is the core rules in Pathfinder/3e. Not certain on 4/5e, but it seems it's part of the OP's world.

 

[Aelryinth]

How are they trivialising encounters? If they have a few kegs how is that causing a power grab? It's gone from unlimited, to nearly unlimted, to a few kegs.

What does it matter so much if a challenging fight is easy? It should be if the party plan ahead or fight on ground they have prepared. If they blow up the evil wizard's tower with gunpowder well done them for successfully smuggling it in.

it's trivializing, fyi.
It matters when fight after fight becomes trivial, and things lose their challenge. You may not have encountered such an effect yet. Once it happens, it's a death knell to a campaign. So, he's trying to head it off before it does.
You'd get the same thing with a power build, super spell, too-powerful magic item, or the like. It breaks something, and say goodbye to your campaign.

 

[Don Durito]

it's trivializing, fyi.

Not where I come from. That's the thing about spelling in English. It tends to vary.

But if that was you seeking to end the conversation you succeeded.

 

[Ancalagon]

No, the point is that they do. The same amount of gas is released whether the barrel is indoors or outdoors. The only difference is how that energy is directed.

The point is that you can't on the one hand say that "oh, it's just destroying the barrel and that's not that strong" and then show that the same same event in a structure can completely level that structure. Yes, containing an explosive in a room causes the energy to be directed against the walls of the structure, but that's still the same energy being released inside the room to the occupants. That pressure doesn't just blow past them. And much of that gas had to have been once contained in large part by the barrel itself.

I will gladly explain this to you. If you put a pile (say a pound) of black powder and set it on the ground, and set it aflame. It will burn, rather quickly, but will take a few seconds to do so. Release a lot of energy, a lot of smoke.

Why, if I take the same amount of black powder, put it inside a strong container (making a pipe bomb basically), is that black powder now so much more violent and dangerous? The amount of energy is similar...

It's because of speed. When black powder is loose on the ground, the heat and pressure is lost to the environment. When it is confined, like inside a cannon, the heat and pressure increases fast - and the hotter/more pressure there is on black powder, the faster it burns! So all the energy is released a lot faster, resulting in far more destructive results.

Every year people routinely severely injure or maim themselves with firecrackers and salutes. Loss of digits or whole hands is common. Those are a very small amount of powder. M-80s are typically said to hold about 3-5 grams of powder -- flash powder, yes, but still a low explosive powder -- wrapped up in cardboard and sealed with wax or glue. You can't tell me that an iron-bound wooden barrel or keg is less capable of containing pressure than a cardboard tube. Bear in mind, too, that barrels are often designed to contain wine, beer, and similar fermenting liquids. Barrels are capable of holding significant pressure just by being barrels. Powder kegs would likely be constructed to be as water tight as feasible, since wet powder doesn't burn at all.

Similarly, cardboard isn't particularly known for it's ability to be deadly shrapnel, while a wooden barrel would shiver itself. Further, if you're going to make a keg bomb you can do something as simple as pack it with stones, line the outside with nails, or mix in metal scraps.

In this case, note how you say injured or maimed - fatalities are rare. It's because the range is so close - often direct contact, and the damage is lower - a d4, a d6? Of course a barrel would do more damage than a firecracker! But not an astounding amount. I suggested 4d6, for example, which will kill normal human beings unless they are quite lucky or far away.

 

[Ancalagon]

Dude, you're talking about pressure vehicles and explosion dispersion in a world where if you stand one inch outside a fireball you take no damage whatsoever, but full damage if you ARE inside that one inch, and the second after the fireball is gone, ambient temperature is back to normal. Unless something got lit on fire, it's cool to the touch!

this is true. We don't have any real world fireball spells to compare to, however. We do have a fairly good idea of how black powder behaves.

(Note, I will concede the point that a lot of people have a more "cinematic" understanding of it).

 

[Ancalagon]

Saruman's bomb wasn't black powder or gunpowder, it was whatever magics Saruman cooked up, and called the Fire of Orthanc. As Saruman was the most powerful of wizards prior to Gandalf taking the white, and who created an entire new race of half-orc, saying that the Fire was just gunpowder is really selling Saruman short. Luckily, he's fictional, so no worries.

I have to disagree with you there - not saying that I am "right" and you are "wrong", but if you look, thematically, Saruman was a representation of technology and destructive industrialization. It would be very appropriate that Saruman invented black powder and knew how to wield it well - so the bomb wasn't a barrel, but a strong metal container that amplified its power. The narrow tunnel also amplified the destructive power.