Neverwinter Hate
- Thread starter Darklone
- Start date
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
I really liked it at first, but I'm liking it less now:
-The gameplay is extremely repetitive. It doesn't feel necessary to try out new strategies in the game.
-The game is easy. I'm playing a bard, I don't summon creatures anymore (because I want all the XP for myself), and I've very rarely felt the need to rest or even teleport back to town.
-The AI is stupid.
-The story is railroading.
-And, worst of all, the game is buggy. I've almost finished chapter 2, but I'm going to need to replay the entire chapter because of a bug in it.
The graphics are great, of course, and the game seems well-balanced and reasonably true to 3E. If I had a better Internet connection (mine waffles between 28.8 and 56.6), I'd get into the multiplayer aspect. But I can't do that now, so I just have to be disappointed in the single-player aspect.
Warcraft, OTOH, has pulled me in hook, line and sinker. Much better storyline, much more challenging gameplay, and the graphics are more appealing to me.
Daniel
-The gameplay is extremely repetitive. It doesn't feel necessary to try out new strategies in the game.
-The game is easy. I'm playing a bard, I don't summon creatures anymore (because I want all the XP for myself), and I've very rarely felt the need to rest or even teleport back to town.
-The AI is stupid.
-The story is railroading.
-And, worst of all, the game is buggy. I've almost finished chapter 2, but I'm going to need to replay the entire chapter because of a bug in it.
The graphics are great, of course, and the game seems well-balanced and reasonably true to 3E. If I had a better Internet connection (mine waffles between 28.8 and 56.6), I'd get into the multiplayer aspect. But I can't do that now, so I just have to be disappointed in the single-player aspect.
Warcraft, OTOH, has pulled me in hook, line and sinker. Much better storyline, much more challenging gameplay, and the graphics are more appealing to me.
Daniel
Uller
Adventurer
If you seriously expected NWN single player mode to come anywhere close replicating PnP D&D, you simply had greater expectations than are reasonable. I've not played the game, and I've not invested too much time in the hype, but from what I've read, the single player mode is just a series of prepackaged adventures that are loosely strung together...now think about it...how interactive can that really be? As a DM for a PnP campaign, could you concieve of creating an entire campaign of, say 10 adventures, completely in advance, including preplanning all NPCs reactions to the party? If you could, you are a far superior DM than I. Hell, I usually have no idea what the second adventure is going to be until we are about 75% through the first!
Now...in multiplayer mode, I see some real potential. The DM could create an adventure and throw in some hooks to future potential adventures. The DM can run the NPCs and when the session is over, ask the players what hook(s) they'd like to follow and create a new adventure. Repeat until you've run an entire campaign.
But even this still has it's limitations. When I DM a PnP game, invariably there are contingencies I haven't planned for. The players do or say something I didn't expect or go off in a direction I didn't intend. In order for me to let them(and I try to always give them a reasonable chance of success for reasonable actions), I have to create stuff on the fly. In PnP D&D, this is usually quite easy...I don't know how powerful the NWN toolset is, but I doubt it will allow you to change/add to the map on the fly or even add in new NPCs.
For instance...I ran an adventure several months ago where the PCs were supposed to explore a cave complex where the main villian and his cohorts were supposedly hiding. In order to add flavor, I told the Druid player that her PC was familliar with the location of the cave. Her clan used it long ago as a place to seek shelter from the harsh winters in the region as well as a place to store food in the summer months. This was before her birth, though so she had never actually been in the cave, but she knew where it was. I did this merely as a vehicle to get the party to the cave quickly without incident as well as help the players feel tied to the setting.
I didn't expect the players to say "Well if she has heard so much about this cave, perhaps she is aware of some 'back' entrance that might not be very well guarded?" I hadn't thought of this...I hadn't mapped the entire cave, just the relevant parts and from my description, it is a large and confusing complex. So it seemed reasonable that the druid would indeed know that a back entrance would exist and might have a good chance to find one. So I had her make a Wilderness Lore check vs. DC 25 (or something high, hoping she wouldn't find it) and she beat it. So I "created" a back entrance on the fly that allowed the party to by pass one encounter and gain an advantage in a second.
I don't see how you could reasonably expect to be able to do that in NWN. So there is no way that NWN can replicate (or even come close) to the PnP experience. While it may use a modified 3e rules set and have some powerful "DM" tools, it is still, at its heart, a Computer Game (probably a really really cool computer game, but a computer game nonetheless). Until they have voice and the ability to allow the DM to quickly create new stuff on the fly, they will not replicate the PnP experience. Period.
Now...in multiplayer mode, I see some real potential. The DM could create an adventure and throw in some hooks to future potential adventures. The DM can run the NPCs and when the session is over, ask the players what hook(s) they'd like to follow and create a new adventure. Repeat until you've run an entire campaign.
But even this still has it's limitations. When I DM a PnP game, invariably there are contingencies I haven't planned for. The players do or say something I didn't expect or go off in a direction I didn't intend. In order for me to let them(and I try to always give them a reasonable chance of success for reasonable actions), I have to create stuff on the fly. In PnP D&D, this is usually quite easy...I don't know how powerful the NWN toolset is, but I doubt it will allow you to change/add to the map on the fly or even add in new NPCs.
For instance...I ran an adventure several months ago where the PCs were supposed to explore a cave complex where the main villian and his cohorts were supposedly hiding. In order to add flavor, I told the Druid player that her PC was familliar with the location of the cave. Her clan used it long ago as a place to seek shelter from the harsh winters in the region as well as a place to store food in the summer months. This was before her birth, though so she had never actually been in the cave, but she knew where it was. I did this merely as a vehicle to get the party to the cave quickly without incident as well as help the players feel tied to the setting.
I didn't expect the players to say "Well if she has heard so much about this cave, perhaps she is aware of some 'back' entrance that might not be very well guarded?" I hadn't thought of this...I hadn't mapped the entire cave, just the relevant parts and from my description, it is a large and confusing complex. So it seemed reasonable that the druid would indeed know that a back entrance would exist and might have a good chance to find one. So I had her make a Wilderness Lore check vs. DC 25 (or something high, hoping she wouldn't find it) and she beat it. So I "created" a back entrance on the fly that allowed the party to by pass one encounter and gain an advantage in a second.
I don't see how you could reasonably expect to be able to do that in NWN. So there is no way that NWN can replicate (or even come close) to the PnP experience. While it may use a modified 3e rules set and have some powerful "DM" tools, it is still, at its heart, a Computer Game (probably a really really cool computer game, but a computer game nonetheless). Until they have voice and the ability to allow the DM to quickly create new stuff on the fly, they will not replicate the PnP experience. Period.
myrdden
First Post
Re: Not even close...
While this may be true for the single player game, the multiplayer game voids most of these problems. That's assuming you have a decent DM who understands how to run the game properly (NWN I mean).
The whole attraction and promise of NWN is not the single player game, but the multiplayer game.
Myrdden
vox said:
While this may be true for the single player game, the multiplayer game voids most of these problems. That's assuming you have a decent DM who understands how to run the game properly (NWN I mean).
The whole attraction and promise of NWN is not the single player game, but the multiplayer game.
Myrdden
Bagpuss
Legend
Pielorinho said:
Actually summoning low-level creatures when you are high level means you get even more XP. Due to the weird method of calculating XP the game uses.
Say your 9th level and you use Summon Monster I to get a CR1 critter, the average party level now drops from 9 to 5. So what might have been an even CR 9 encounter now becomes a challenging one. So more XP is awarded. Unlike normal D&D this XP isn't shared out evenly, the 9th level character gets the lions share (about 9/10ths of it) and so get much more XP than if they faced it alone, sometime 2 to 3 times more XP for the same monster. (Now is this a Bug or a Feature of their XP system?)
The graphics are pretty poor when you compare it to Dungeon Siege, but that is party to do with it being an old graphics engine and the need to use tiles to make module design easy.
Lazybones
Hero
Just a quick note to Uller: While it's true that you cannot change terrain on the fly, it's relatively easy to spawn in new NPCs. I even put a few extra custom NPCs (with simple "stock" scripts/conversations) in the module database so that I can spawn them onto the map if need be. Players heading off into the wilderness where you haven't placed anything? Spawn in a stock ranger who warns of a rogue monster in the region... and then run on a little bit ahead and plop one of the baddies down in their path. Or if you don't want to do that much anticipation, you can just spawn a regular NPC from the existing database and possess it--voila! instant NPC that can respond to the PCs.
That said, I also agree that NWN is just the first step. I think once we get to full voice communication (though some people are already doing it with Roger Wilco or other such programs) and with the lessons learned from NWN, we'll have some pretty impressive stuff coming out of the pipeline 4-5 years from now.
That said, I also agree that NWN is just the first step. I think once we get to full voice communication (though some people are already doing it with Roger Wilco or other such programs) and with the lessons learned from NWN, we'll have some pretty impressive stuff coming out of the pipeline 4-5 years from now.
Uller
Adventurer
Lazybones said:
That's cool. All the more reason to like it and all the more reason why the game was designed to be played multiplayer with a DM. Just reading the FAQ on the NWN website, I got the feeling that the game really was intended to be played this way...that's its primary appeal...and that single player mode is just there to allow people to mess around with it to learn it and play it when they don't have anyone else to play with.
Sounds like it. I'll probably pick up NWN in a few months (or ask for it for a Christmas gift).
dagger
Adventurer
I took this from a recent review of the game, it pretty much sums up my views as well. A new patch did come out today though, go here for patch link. www.bluesnews.com
Conclusion:
There's nothing really bad about Neverwinter Nights; and there's nothing else really good either. If you remove the Toolset, which, apparently, is not a priority to BioWare, NWN is a pretty mediocre game. The story is not as interesting as Baldur's Gate's, the gameplay is stifling compared to Morrowind, and the 3D engine is laughable compared to Morrowind and Dungeon Siege. The Toolset, and the people that will use it, are the only thing that gives NWN its worth. Hopefully BioWare will soon realize this and do more to support them.
Conclusion:
There's nothing really bad about Neverwinter Nights; and there's nothing else really good either. If you remove the Toolset, which, apparently, is not a priority to BioWare, NWN is a pretty mediocre game. The story is not as interesting as Baldur's Gate's, the gameplay is stifling compared to Morrowind, and the 3D engine is laughable compared to Morrowind and Dungeon Siege. The Toolset, and the people that will use it, are the only thing that gives NWN its worth. Hopefully BioWare will soon realize this and do more to support them.
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